Carrie Brown/Ameer Ben Ali Discussion Thread Including The Trial & Aftermath

[Howard Brown]

I’ve been trying to think if there could have been another scenario as to what might have happened that night just to see if any other possibility exists no matter how unlikely but there’s just nothing unless we go into accomplice territory. It had to be either Ali or Kniclo/Glenmore/Farmhand.

Thinking outside of the box sure doesn't hurt, Mike.
It is sort of ironic that the man who wrote down C. Kniclo was himself a killer.....Tommy Thompson.
Offhand, I forget his address...it might be in the Coroner Inquest report....he was married, if I recall correctly, and lived elsewhere.
Besides the fact he'd want nothing to do with the law having first spent time in Sing Sing back in 1879...and his incident ( the murder, in my opinion) in 1886 at the Hotel....I think it a slam dunk he'd steer clear of any overt actions with any of the women.
I also agree 100 percent with you that it was either Ali or C.Kniclo/Glenmore. The latter existed without a doubt...Farmhand, I'd place at a little less than that at the moment.

[Michael Banks]

As you said, How, there has to be at least some doubt about the Farmhand story. It’s tough to come to any real conclusions on this case when we have - those at the hotel, like Fitzgerald, Shine, Corcoran etc who, apart from being wary of getting involved with the Police anyway, would have been susceptible to pressure (from Jennings or the Police for example) - Ali who could barely complete a sentence without adding a lie - Damon, who you wouldn’t trust to tell you what day it was - Mrs Damon who would lie to support her husbands version of events - Brennan who would want to keep his job with Damon - The Press who were interested in sensation and might not have turned down an opportunity to take Byrnes down a peg or two by questioning the presence of the blood - and a Police force that didn’t cover themselves in glory when explaining what happened on the day of the murder and during the investigation and who didn’t exactly have a great reputation for being corruption-free. Not to mention a Coroner who allowed the equivalent of a football team to trudge all over a crime scene. Sherlock Holmes wouldn’t have been happy with Schultze. Then we can throw in a guy who killed a man with a samurai sword working in the hotel and a guy who appeared to have his wife locked in a room all day.

Come on How, you and Nina should have solved this case years ago.

[Howard Brown]

Mike:

Very precise summation of the case at hand, Mike.. Thanks for this.

[Howard Brown]

Mike...


What If ?......and this one most certainly was a possibility :

After being refused at the Glenmore Hotel, C. Kniclo is stopped and questioned by a cop on the beat. He's asked about the blood on his person. When the policeman discovers that he isn't the source of the blood and that someone else was. C. Kniclo is taken to jail for further questioning. He is searched and the key is among whatever he has on his person. Keep in mind he had a bloody shirt, according to Damon, which he left in Cranford upon his departure.

Unable to give a good reason for the blood, the police keep him for a day in jail until the reason he's bloody is known. At this point, the key means nothing.

Around 10:00 A.M. on the 24th, Brown's body was found.

On that day, it would be known by the police that the numbered room key was missing prior to a sketch published in the papers. Ordinarily, a missing key would be assumed to have been taken and disposed of in any other circumstance and there wouldn't be such concern for it as there was in this murder case. Fortunately there was.
Word gets to the jailhouse where Glenmore Man is being held about the key. Whoever jailed him has his possessions set aside upon his release. It wouldn't require much to realize Glenmore Man has the missing key to a room where a murder occurred just a few hours earlier down the street. Now, however he's not getting released and now he's being charged with Brown's murder. All of this before 9 PM which was the time of day a certain man would be arrested on Water Street in real life.

Has justice prevailed in our hypothetical scenario ? Is all well in the world for those who once wrung their hands in agony over what they consider the wrongful detention of Ameer Ben Ali ?
If so, remember that Ali would have still had Brown's blood containing leukemic cells under his nails. Ali, in the hypothetical scenario, walks away, scot free. Yet, he still has that biological matter under his nails.
Did justice prevail in this 'What If ?"
Remember that all it would have taken for the above to actually have occurred is for a policeman on his beat in Chatham Square to have taken notice of a man with blood on his face under the glow of gaslight.


What If ?.............and this, like the above, could very well have happened :

Imagine, in this What If ?, everything that happened in the build up to the trial happened as it really did with one exception. The exception being that the jury felt
more convinced about Ali's guilt. They came to the conclusion, across the board, that C. Kniclo didn't have anything to do with the murder. To them, he had left prior to the murder leaving the door unlocked but probably taking the key with him. Therefore, they decide to vote 12-0 for first degree murder. It's the electric chair for Ali. Ali gets the hot seat and is executed.

Question is....in this scenario, would George Damon have spoken up after July 10th's sentencing .....or does he clam up just as he did in real life when Ali got life without parole ?

[Howard Brown]

Mike

Here's some more issues I have with Damon's story pertaining to the farmhand.

1. Damon stated that he had kept the farmhand on after he completed his original task...of grading the land...apparently because the farmhand performed his initial task to Damon's satisfaction.

2. Damon, on the 24th and prior to going to work on that Friday, was told by his other hired hand that the Dane had a rough night...'he was ugly'...is the phrase Damon used.

3. This proves the farmhand had work on Friday. Damon is a tightwad and would probably want to know why the farmhand was a no-show Jones for Friday's chores. Damon goes to work.

4. The farmhand had gone to the Lower East Side. When he went is unknown. He hooks up with Brown and goes to the East River Hotel and pays for a room.

5. His action seems to indicate he planned on spending the night since he arrived at the hotel after 10:30 according to Mary Miniter.

6. This is where the confusion sets in. If Damon went to the outside house or barn or wherever the farmhand was staying and asked about him, that means he had no idea that the farmhand would be incapable of work on Friday.

7. It is very unlikely that Damon did not learn of the Brown murder on Friday while at work. His business was 1 mile away from the crime scene. Lower East Side tom-toms would have made
their way to Beekman Street. He was more than likely aware that a woman had been murdered by a man who escaped the clutches of the law before he left for home.

8. In his affidavit & in press reports which in some areas differ in the details.... Damon did not ask the Farmhand about the night before. He knows that the farmhand went out and got wasted.
He knows the farmhand had to either go to Jersey City or more likely, the docks of the Lower East Side because that's where the whores and bars are. He couldn't trip the light fantastic
in staid, prim and proper Cranford...a town that rolls the sidewalk up at 7 PM...a town with no prostitutes within spitting distance like Manhattan...no bars remotely close to the House of All Drinks...and no police force. In 1891, Cranford is not the place to go for action like that found on Water Street.

9. Damon is aware of the murder...aware that his employee had been intoxicated and probably in Manhattan...but isn't the least bit suspicious of the farmhand's night on the town ?

10. At least, you'd think....I sure would....Damon would ask the farmhand if he'd been in Manhattan and had heard of the murder since he was there roughly at the same time it was committed.

I don't know what others might think, but I sure as hell would have been a little interested in what the farmhand had done on Thursday night and how it prevented him from working the next work day..

Your thoughts............

[Michael Banks]

Mike...


What If ?......and this one most certainly was a possibility :

After being refused at the Glenmore Hotel, C. Kniclo is stopped and questioned by a cop on the beat. He's asked about the blood on his person. When the policeman discovers that he isn't the source of the blood and that someone else was. C. Kniclo is taken to jail for further questioning. He is searched and the key is among whatever he has on his person. Keep in mind he had a bloody shirt, according to Damon, which he left in Cranford upon his departure.

Unable to give a good reason for the blood, the police keep him for a day in jail until the reason he's bloody is known. At this point, the key means nothing.

Around 10:00 A.M. on the 24th, Brown's body was found.

On that day, it would be known by the police that the numbered room key was missing prior to a sketch published in the papers. Ordinarily, a missing key would be assumed to have been taken and disposed of in any other circumstance and there wouldn't be such concern for it as there was in this murder case. Fortunately there was.
Word gets to the jailhouse where Glenmore Man is being held about the key. Whoever jailed him has his possessions set aside upon his release. It wouldn't require much to realize Glenmore Man has the missing key to a room where a murder occurred just a few hours earlier down the street. Now, however he's not getting released and now he's being charged with Brown's murder. All of this before 9 PM which was the time of day a certain man would be arrested on Water Street in real life.

Has justice prevailed in our hypothetical scenario ? Is all well in the world for those who once wrung their hands in agony over what they consider the wrongful detention of Ameer Ben Ali ?
If so, remember that Ali would have still had Brown's blood containing leukemic cells under his nails. Ali, in the hypothetical scenario, walks away, scot free. Yet, he still has that biological matter under his nails.
Did justice prevail in this 'What If ?"
Remember that all it would have taken for the above to actually have occurred is for a policeman on his beat in Chatham Square to have taken notice of a man with blood on his face under the glow of gaslight.


What If ?.............and this, like the above, could very well have happened :

Imagine, in this What If ?, everything that happened in the build up to the trial happened as it really did with one exception. The exception being that the jury felt
more convinced about Ali's guilt. They came to the conclusion, across the board, that C. Kniclo didn't have anything to do with the murder. To them, he had left prior to the murder leaving the door unlocked but probably taking the key with him. Therefore, they decide to vote 12-0 for first degree murder. It's the electric chair for Ali. Ali gets the hot seat and is executed.

Question is....in this scenario, would George Damon have spoken up after July 10th's sentencing .....or does he clam up just as he did in real life when Ali got life without parole ?

Interesting ‘twist of fate’ scenarios How. Neither of them implausible. In the first they both have a connection to Brown but Ali avoids further scrutiny because GM has the key. In the second we have a decision that the jury might easily have come to. I wonder if Ali had been executed would anyone have bother trying for a posthumous pardon? I somehow doubt it.

Would Damon have come forward brandishing the key to save Ali from the gallows? I tend to doubt it. If you’d asked Damon though he’d have said “of course I would. Do you think I’m the kind of guy that would stand by while an innocent man is executed?” Well, actually George, yes I do.

[Howard Brown]

I wonder if Ali had been executed would anyone have bother trying for a posthumous pardon? I somehow doubt it.

It would require Damon having coming forward with the key to achieve that. Unlikely, boss.

[Michael Banks]

Mike

Here's some more issues I have with Damon's story pertaining to the farmhand.

1. Damon stated that he had kept the farmhand on after he completed his original task...of grading the land...apparently because the farmhand performed his initial task to Damon's satisfaction.

2. Damon, on the 24th and prior to going to work on that Friday, was told by his other hired hand that the Dane had a rough night...'he was ugly'...is the phrase Damon used.

3. This proves the farmhand had work on Friday. Damon is a tightwad and would probably want to know why the farmhand was a no-show Jones for Friday's chores. Damon goes to work.

4. The farmhand had gone to the Lower East Side. When he went is unknown. He hooks up with Brown and goes to the East River Hotel and pays for a room.

5. His action seems to indicate he planned on spending the night since he arrived at the hotel after 10:30 according to Mary Miniter.

6. This is where the confusion sets in. If Damon went to the outside house or barn or wherever the farmhand was staying and asked about him, that means he had no idea that the farmhand would be incapable of work on Friday.

7. It is very unlikely that Damon did not learn of the Brown murder on Friday while at work. His business was 1 mile away from the crime scene. Lower East Side tom-toms would have made
their way to Beekman Street. He was more than likely aware that a woman had been murdered by a man who escaped the clutches of the law before he left for home.

8. In his affidavit & in press reports which in some areas differ in the details.... Damon did not ask the Farmhand about the night before. He knows that the farmhand went out and got wasted.
He knows the farmhand had to either go to Jersey City or more likely, the docks of the Lower East Side because that's where the whores and bars are. He couldn't trip the light fantastic
in staid, prim and proper Cranford...a town that rolls the sidewalk up at 7 PM...a town with no prostitutes within spitting distance like Manhattan...no bars remotely close to the House of All Drinks...and no police force. In 1891, Cranford is not the place to go for action like that found on Water Street.

9. Damon is aware of the murder...aware that his employee had been intoxicated and probably in Manhattan...but isn't the least bit suspicious of the farmhand's night on the town ?

10. At least, you'd think....I sure would....Damon would ask the farmhand if he'd been in Manhattan and had heard of the murder since he was there roughly at the same time it was committed.

I don't know what others might think, but I sure as hell would have been a little interested in what the farmhand had done on Thursday night and how it prevented him from working the next work day..

Your thoughts............

It’s a good point How. Also the phrase “he was ugly” is an interesting one too. It’s not just about being hungover. It smack of aggression. It sounds like the guy who told Damon that the Farmhand wouldn’t be making a contribution that day was pretty much saying “I wouldn’t bother questioning him if I were you as he might turn nasty.” It gives the impression that this man had a reputation so perhaps (and it’s only a perhaps) that among Damon’s list of excuses maybe one might have been near the truth. That the Farmhand was someone that you didn’t want to mess with and Damon was scared of him (maybe with good reason?) If this was the case, and it’s only speculation, then we might add that point to your points.

Why wasn’t Damon curious about a guy with a nasty reputation going out for a session that was so heavy that he couldn’t raise himself from bed the next day, especially when by far the likeliest location for this escapade was the area where a brutal murder had occurred? Then his servant finds the key and the shirt and realises that the Farmhand is a maniac. So I’d have asked Mr Damon - why would you think that it was better for society that an undoubtedly unsavoury character like Ali was either executed or sent down for life whilst the psycho that people were even suggesting might have been Jack the Ripper is left free as a bird? Didn’t he ever think “what if this guy comes back to get the incriminating key? And what if he decides that he doesn’t want to risk me opening my mouth?”

[Howard Brown]

Mike:

Just a thought here....if Damon had picked up bad vibes from the Farmhand prior to April 24th....the day of the murder..., then why would he ( as he stated ) keep him on for further work ?


Didn’t he ever think “what if this guy comes back to get the incriminating key? And what if he decides that he doesn’t want to risk me opening my mouth?”

Good questions, Mike. Damon, if you recall wasn't shy of wielding a handgun ( at burglars) or getting into scuffles ( on the ferry )....but not being able to know where or when the farmhand might return with a wife and three kids at home is a different story.
By the time the Coroner Inquest was underway....20 days from the date of the murder.....he could have come forward by then. Inexcusable irresponsibility, IMHO.

[Michael Banks]

More good points there How. Our Mr Damon was no one’s pushover so it’s unlikely that he’d have been intimidated by an employee and he wouldn’t have been keen on having having someone around the property who he suspected might have been any kind of danger to his wife, kids or servant. But as you’ve pointed out, why wasn’t he at least suspicious or curious about him at the time. No matter how we look at it it just doesn’t add up.

Did no one ever say, on record…..so you had a guy unable to work on the morning after the murder then the key to the murder room and a bloodied shirt was found in his room, and you do precisely nothing knowing that an innocent man could have been going to the chair or to a life sentence? And still nothing when the verdict came in.

Has Prof. Dekle ever commented on whether Damon might have been in danger of falling foul of the law when he came forward 10 years too late and only then because Lee couldn’t keep his mouth shut? If there was a danger of this How then that would pen up more speculation on how he avoided those consequences.

[Howard Brown]

Has Prof. Dekle ever commented on whether Damon might have been in danger of falling foul of the law when he came forward 10 years too late and only then because Lee couldn’t keep his mouth shut? If there was a danger of this How then that would pen up more speculation on how he avoided those consequences

Mike:

I don't recall if that subject came up in a chat ( it should have since I think it's important ) about whether or not Damon could have faced charges of withholding evidence...but he may have touched on it in The East River Ripper and I don't remember at the moment. I get a chance I'll flip through the book again unless you beat me to it.
It's likely that Damon, a middle class businessman, would not face charges....but of course Ali would have if the roles were reversed, I'd think.
There may have been a statute of limitations concerning the withholding of evidence in New York. Remember Damon lived in New Jersey and I'd imagine he and his lawyer(s) discussed the possibility that the prick could be charged. After all, it had been a decade that Damon had the key, The statute of limitations for bank robbery is 7 years in Massachusetts, for example.
It may have been stipulated that upon turning the key over to the authorities in New York, Damon wouldn't face any charges.

[Howard Brown]

Mike:

Another question I've had.....as to why the police didn't take these men ( like Rossmissell) to the Glenmore Hotel so Kelly the Night Man could determine if one of them was the man he saw early Friday morning.

Rossmissell and 'Yungstreet' Andersen on this thread :

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-victims/carrie-brown-discussion-section-howard-brown/588083-looking-for-franks-a-pdf-of-research-conducted-by-kattrup-m-a-franzoi/page3#post590180

Reason being...is that the description that Miniter gave and Kelly gave are carbon copy....the all points bulletin contained something Kelly had said, "speaks broken English".

If so, then why weren't there any reports of men being taken to the Glenmore ? Miniter had her ass hauled all over creation looking at men, being dragged out of the police lock up to do so.
Since she was arrested as a material witness ( and, by her admission not an employee of the hotel) and Kelly wasn't arrested, she had no say in where the police took her, but it doesn't explain
why after giving the police his description of the Glenmore Man, Kelly vanishes from the papers.

[Howard Brown]

Saturday, April 23rd, is the 131st year to the day that Carrie Brown spent her last day on Earth. R.I.P.

This is the sketch of the man who was the proprietor of the East River Hotel, James Francis Jennings, born in Ireland, in May 1859 and died on March 29th, 1937 in New York City. His wife was Annie Tierney ( all data from the Boss, Nina Brown). Yours truly copied the sketch.

Special thanks to Mark Franzoi for bringing up data from the New York World earlier today. Without his finds, I'd have never stuck my nose into the New York
World papers again, thinking I had already scoured them thoroughly. I hadn't.

New York World
April 26th, 1891
*******************

[Michael Banks]

Mike:

Another question I've had.....as to why the police didn't take these men ( like Rossmissell) to the Glenmore Hotel so Kelly the Night Man could determine if one of them was the man he saw early Friday morning.

Rossmissell and 'Yungstreet' Andersen on this thread :

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-victims/carrie-brown-discussion-section-howard-brown/588083-looking-for-franks-a-pdf-of-research-conducted-by-kattrup-m-a-franzoi/page3#post590180

Reason being...is that the description that Miniter gave and Kelly gave are carbon copy....the all points bulletin contained something Kelly had said, "speaks broken English".

If so, then why weren't there any reports of men being taken to the Glenmore ? Miniter had her ass hauled all over creation looking at men, being dragged out of the police lock up to do so.
Since she was arrested as a material witness ( and, by her admission not an employee of the hotel) and Kelly wasn't arrested, she had no say in where the police took her, but it doesn't explain
why after giving the police his description of the Glenmore Man, Kelly vanishes from the papers.

My memory is failing me here How but I seem to recall reading somewhere about various people being taken in by the Police for reasons unspecified. If I’m not imagining this I can only assume that it’s in an Echo (but which one?) I was wondering if Kelly was called to the station for ID purposes? I’m embarrassed to say that I also can’t recall when Kelly’s info became known (or by what means) even though I seem to recall you telling me this fairly recently?

I have to say How that I still struggle with Kelly’s non-appearance in the witness box. Why was the Defence apparently so confident that the case against Ali would fall apart? Seems like over-confidence to say the least. I’m no lawyer of course but unless Kelly was a drooling halfwit I’d have physically dragged him into that witness box to match up his description with Miniter’s for the jury.

[Michael Banks]

Saturday, April 23rd, is the 131st year to the day that Carrie Brown spent her last day on Earth. R.I.P.

This is the sketch of the man who was the proprietor of the East River Hotel, James Francis Jennings, born in Ireland, in May 1859 and died on March 29th, 1937 in New York City. His wife was Annie Tierney ( all data from the Boss, Nina Brown). Yours truly copied the sketch.

Special thanks to Mark Franzoi for bringing up data from the New York World earlier today. Without his finds, I'd have never stuck my nose into the New York
World papers again, thinking I had already scoured them thoroughly. I hadn't.

New York World
April 26th, 1891
*******************

Well done Howard, Nina and Mark. It’s encouraging to see that there’s still stuff out there to be found.

He looks a well to do kind of guy How. Do we know if he owned other properties?