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Carrie Brown/Ameer Ben Ali Discussion Thread Including The Trial & Aftermath

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  • My memory is failing me here How but I seem to recall reading somewhere about various people being taken in by the Police for reasons unspecified. If I’m not imagining this I can only assume that it’s in an Echo (but which one?) I was wondering if Kelly was called to the station for ID purposes? I’m embarrassed to say that I also can’t recall when Kelly’s info became known (or by what means) even though I seem to recall you telling me this fairly recently?

    I have to say How that I still struggle with Kelly’s non-appearance in the witness box. Why was the Defence apparently so confident that the case against Ali would fall apart? Seems like over-confidence to say the least. I’m no lawyer of course but unless Kelly was a drooling halfwit I’d have physically dragged him into that witness box to match up his description with Miniter’s for the jury.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quite a few men were taken in for questioning, not all listed by name in the papers.
    Kelly provided information on the 24th, the same day Miniter did.
    From what can be gleaned from the papers, he was never used for identification purposes, only giving them a description which was definitely used in the all points bulletin,

    Mike... I forget little details and sometimes big things myself. On the same team, boss....no issue in forgetting things.

    Jennings does look like a well to do person....in a way that sort of gives credence to those upstate New York and Canadian reports which stated he was a respected man uptown but are
    not found in New York papers. I'm going back in to the papers today and will see if I can locate one that corroborates the out of town papers.
    I'll ask the Boss to see if she can locate any other properties he managed or owned a.s.a.p.
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    • Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
      My memory is failing me here How but I seem to recall reading somewhere about various people being taken in by the Police for reasons unspecified. If I’m not imagining this I can only assume that it’s in an Echo (but which one?) I was wondering if Kelly was called to the station for ID purposes? I’m embarrassed to say that I also can’t recall when Kelly’s info became known (or by what means) even though I seem to recall you telling me this fairly recently?

      I have to say How that I still struggle with Kelly’s non-appearance in the witness box. Why was the Defence apparently so confident that the case against Ali would fall apart? Seems like over-confidence to say the least. I’m no lawyer of course but unless Kelly was a drooling halfwit I’d have physically dragged him into that witness box to match up his description with Miniter’s for the jury.

      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Quite a few men were taken in for questioning, not all listed by name in the papers.
      Kelly provided information on the 24th, the same day Miniter did.
      From what can be gleaned from the papers, he was never used for identification purposes, only giving them a description which was definitely used in the all points bulletin,

      Mike... I forget little details and sometimes big things myself. On the same team, boss....no issue in forgetting things.

      Jennings does look like a well to do person....in a way that sort of gives credence to those upstate New York and Canadian reports which stated he was a respected man uptown but are
      not found in New York papers. I'm going back in to the papers today and will see if I can locate one that corroborates the out of town papers.
      I'll ask the Boss to see if she can locate any other properties he managed or owned a.s.a.p.
      I had the impression of Jennings as one of those characters you see in old movies How. Scruffy clothes, stubble that you could strike a match on, talks out of the side of the mouth…..you know the type. Looks more like he was a prosperous businessman or another way of putting it, a slum landlord.
      Regards

      Michael🔎


      " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

      Comment


      • So did I Mike considering he stayed at the hotel on occasion. I recall one article for certain in which he was said to have occupied one of the rooms...can't recall without going digging what story it was.in regard to.

        His sketch certainly doesn't match the mental impression his profession leaves, does it ? Long shot, but maybe the sketch was of a photo....I dunno.
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        • Mike:

          Yet another addition to the murder mystery.

          Here's a clip from the New York World, April 26th, 1891, page 2.

          I never heard of this 'Concillo' at the Glenmore....Kelly was Thomas Kelly according to the World.



          Up to now, I had been under the impression Kelly's co-worker was a man named Tiernan.

          Here's the puzzling thing :.

          In all previous reports I've seen, Kelly turned to Tiernan and told him that Glenmore Man looked as if he had been up to no good.

          In this version, Concilio turned to Kelly and told him that Glenmore Man appeared as if he had been up to no good.

          Ah, the press.

          It's also a reference to a German accent which Mark Franzoi and I were looking into...
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          • Mike, all....

            A couple of other little items.....the first clears up my question as to where the Steve Brodie story came from. Brodie was a famous bridge jumper from Manhattan.
            In the book, The Big Policeman, this following story is told but with the additional claim that the remains were said to have come from a cat.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_...(bridge_jumper)


            New York World
            April 26, 1891
            *****************




            Brodie's bar on the Bowery, circa 1886



            ************************************************** ************************************

            Never heard of this one before.....Brown allegedly being give 30 dollars a month to steer clear of a man with serious cash.
            Pretty far-fetched since $ 30.00 in 1891 would be $ 947.00 in 2022.


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            • Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
              Mike:

              Yet another addition to the murder mystery.

              Here's a clip from the New York World, April 26th, 1891, page 2.

              I never heard of this 'Concillo' at the Glenmore....Kelly was Thomas Kelly according to the World.



              Up to now, I had been under the impression Kelly's co-worker was a man named Tiernan.

              Here's the puzzling thing :.

              In all previous reports I've seen, Kelly turned to Tiernan and told him that Glenmore Man looked as if he had been up to no good.

              In this version, Concilio turned to Kelly and told him that Glenmore Man appeared as if he had been up to no good.

              Ah, the press.

              It's also a reference to a German accent which Mark Franzoi and I were looking into...
              That’s a strange one How. I wonder if this might have been a case of someone mixing up words? Should ‘Concillio’ have read ‘Concierge?’ Kelly might be described as the Concierge at the Glenmore. It’s the only suggestion that I can come up with unless we suggest that Kelly, Tiernan and ‘Concillio’ were all working there that night. But would the owner of a place like the Glenmore have paid three men to spend most of the night sitting around scratching their backsides?
              Regards

              Michael🔎


              " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
                Mike, all....

                A couple of other little items.....the first clears up my question as to where the Steve Brodie story came from. Brodie was a famous bridge jumper from Manhattan.
                In the book, The Big Policeman, this following story is told but with the additional claim that the remains were said to have come from a cat.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_...(bridge_jumper)


                New York World
                April 26, 1891
                *****************




                Brodie's bar on the Bowery, circa 1886



                ************************************************** ************************************

                Never heard of this one before.....Brown allegedly being give 30 dollars a month to steer clear of a man with serious cash.
                Pretty far-fetched since $ 30.00 in 1891 would be $ 947.00 in 2022.


                Brodie’s bar looks like The Savoy compared to the ERH. The story of the $30 doesn’t sound believable as you say How. But could the story have grown in the telling? Maybe $3? I don’t know. It’s interesting that it’s mentioned that Brown was in the company of an actress (I can’t read the the part before this) Considering her past it’s an interesting little detail.

                It’s great that your still finding stuff How. You would have thought that after all the years that you and Nina have been researching the case that you would have been getting close to the ‘picking the bone clean’ stage but it’s still coming.
                Regards

                Michael🔎


                " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

                Comment


                • That’s a strange one How. I wonder if this might have been a case of someone mixing up words? Should ‘Concillio’ have read ‘Concierge?’ Kelly might be described as the Concierge at the Glenmore. It’s the only suggestion that I can come up with unless we suggest that Kelly, Tiernan and ‘Concillio’ were all working there that night. But would the owner of a place like the Glenmore have paid three men to spend most of the night sitting around scratching their backsides?

                  We'll have to see if that Concilio can be found, Mike.....at least it isn't a name like John Smith
                  I don't think any of the three would fall under the title of 'concierge' or that the World reporter would use that term, IMHO.
                  I think we're looking at three guys at the Glenmore that morning or somehow a reporter or typesetter goofed. I think the latter considering how close the Tiernan and Concillo stories are.
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                  • I suppose that ‘concierge’ would be a bit too up market for the Glenmore. Looks like there was a third man around in some capacity.
                    Regards

                    Michael🔎


                    " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

                    Comment


                    • Mike:

                      Up to now, the World is the only paper in which 'Concillio' appears. Again it may be down to flat out piss poor reportage...or reportage hurriedly concocted by the reporter so he could scurry back to his editor in order to 'scoop' the other papers.

                      Here's another example of an incorrect report....this time from the New York Tribune on April 25th.

                      It was Adam Lang ( died in late December 1899) who arrested Ali on Water Street. His trial and coroner inquest testimony covers the arrest.

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                      • One thing that stands out when we read about Ameer Ben Ali....and to me stands out in a big way.....is that he appears to have been two different people when we take accounts from Brooklyn and compare them to those made in the Lower East Side.

                        In Brooklyn, Mrs. John Allen ( Anglicized name of one of Ali's friends, Jenalli, was a Turk, she an Irish American), Ali was perceived as being :

                        ** Generous to children - source : Mrs. Jenalli
                        ** Never insulting to women - ditto
                        ** Wouldn't lay a hand on a woman- ditto
                        ** Industrious : Often up at 6 and back home at 7 - ditto

                        At his apartment in Manhattan

                        ** Never seen intoxicated -Son of A. Dondero, Ali's Manhattan landlord at 174 Worth Street
                        ** Never behind in the rent - ditto

                        ************************************************** ****************************************

                        Sounds like a pretty solid fellow over in Brooklyn and on Worth Street, one half mile from the East River Hotel.

                        ************************************************** ********************

                        In The Lower East Side

                        ** Confrontational with women : Mary Harrington, Mary Finnegan, Mary Ann Lopez ( Malone )...the latter he bit, and a report of him attempting to enter the room of Mr. & Mrs. Mannix earlier in the week of Brown's murder and while Mr. Mannix was still at work.
                        ** Habit of sneaking around on the fifth floor and attempting to enter rooms after the man who had rented it left. This is brought out in Nellie English's testimony at the trial.
                        ** Well known to numerous whores in the vicinity of the hotel.
                        ** An unclean man is putting it lightly.
                        **A world class liar.


                        In addition :Feigned an injured arm while wearing a splint and begged for money
                        Stole or was alleged to have stolen money from George Frank in Brooklyn

                        I'd like other opinions on this if possible. He certainly was clever in disguising his bad side from people more than slightly familiar with him. In fact, he does seem like two people, doesn't he ?

                        Pretty good article in this East River Echo Number 16...and NY Evening World from May 12, 1891






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                        • The final argument by the State delivered by D.A. De Lancey Nicoll, is notable to those who have read it for its inflammatory statements ( by 2022 standards ) regarding
                          Ali's homeland, his ethnic group, and the interracial relationships between Ali and the local whores. ( It appears all of those women who had had intercourse with Ali
                          and are listed in the papers were Irish-American women as was, most likely, Carrie Brown). I think Ali would have bumped uglies with anyone with a heartbeat.
                          Nicoll is featured in East River Echo Number 91. I've added that PDF..


                          In this presentation on July 3, 1891, Nicoll mentions Ali stealing from his friend Jen Ali in Brooklyn. This was incorrect.

                          Ali was alleged or actually did pilfer from George Frank. Jen Ali, known by his Anglicized name, John Allen, provided positive remarks concerning Ali as did his wife in a few newspapers
                          in New York during May of 1891. In fact, Jen Ali offered to go see Ali in The Tombs in early May, but the reporter balked. Eventually, Emmanuel Friend took Jen Ali
                          and Sheikh Bozieb, his other buddy, to see him. Ali had called for them in order to see friendly faces.


                          It may just be me....but since Ali had no one to speak on his behalf as to his character at the trial, I think I would have brought Jen Ali and his wife to Manhattan to fill that need.

                          Ali's problem, even with praise from the Allens, would be his track record on the east side of the Brooklyn Bridge.
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                          • Here are two PDFs of the Prosecution's Final Argument. File was too large to post in one PDF.
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                            • This clip from the Evening World May 12, 1891 states Abe Levy took Jen Ali to go see Ameer Ben Ali. Emmanuel Friend was present at the Tombs, but apparently Levy brought the Turks over.

                              George Frank was also a Turk....

                              NY Evening World
                              May 12, 1891

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                              • Of possible interest......

                                The decision to take matter from under Ali's nails was without precedent unless in some far off unknown jurisdiction for some unreported crime. It would definitely be done again.

                                I've attached East River Echo Number 146 which contains the after thoughts of Dr. Austin Flint.

                                In this East River Echo, the thought of looking under Carl Feigenbaum's nails is suggested....I don't know offhand if it was undertaken but I can go look.

                                It WAS undertaken in the 1897 Guldensuppe Murder, a murder which was the talk of the town in that year and a catalyst in the Hearst-Pulitzer newspaper wars.

                                This is a clip from the July 3, 1897 edition of the New York Tribune.

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