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Carrie Brown/Ameer Ben Ali Discussion Thread Including The Trial & Aftermath

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  • Mike:
    I've attached the most recent East River Echo ( 187 ) here just so I don't forget what I wanted to share with you.

    In 1895, the Lexow Committee ( which included Winston Churchill's first cousin, William Travers Jerome ) was the primary reason for Inspector Byrnes' resignation.
    He was issued his full pension for his 32 years of service. However, people associated with him and his Detective Bureau were no longer under his wing and protection after the Committee's proceedings

    * Det. Sgt George Aloncle, police interpreter at the Ali trial was demoted in 1895 to patrolman and assigned to walking a beat
    * Det. Sgt. William Frink, who was the policeman who scraped under Ali's nails, called it quits, like Byrnes, & requested his pension
    *Det. Sgt. George McClusky, also involved in the murder investigation, was demoted to patrolman.



    More in the PDF : NY Evening World, July 19, 1895
    Attached Files
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    • Here's something people may not have known

      William Shakespeare's birthday is usually celebrated on April 23rd.


      William Shakespeare was born in Stratford-upon-Avon, England, in April 1564. The exact date of his birth is not recorded, but it is most often celebrated around the world on 23 April.

      Shakespeare’s baptism is recorded in the Parish Register at Holy Trinity Church, Stratford-upon-Avon on Wednesday 26 April 1564. Baptisms typically took place within three days of a new arrival, and parents were instructed by the Prayer Book to ensure that their children were baptised no later than the first Sunday after birth. This means that it’s unlikely that Shakespeare was born any earlier than the previous Sunday, 23 April. Given that three days would be a reasonable interval between birth and baptism, 23 April has therefore come to be celebrated as his birthday.

      Shakespeare also died on 23 April; in 1616, when he was 52 years of age.


      Meanwhile 275 years later on April 23rd, 1891, Carrie Brown, a.k.a. Shakespeare or Old Shakespeare ( in the press) went to the fifth floor of the East River Hotel and never left.

      NY World
      April 25, 1891
      ******************



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      • Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
        Here's something people may not have known

        William Shakespeare's birthday is usually celebrated on April 23rd.


        William Shakespeare was born in Stratford-upon-Avon, England, in April 1564. The exact date of his birth is not recorded, but it is most often celebrated around the world on 23 April.

        Shakespeare’s baptism is recorded in the Parish Register at Holy Trinity Church, Stratford-upon-Avon on Wednesday 26 April 1564. Baptisms typically took place within three days of a new arrival, and parents were instructed by the Prayer Book to ensure that their children were baptised no later than the first Sunday after birth. This means that it’s unlikely that Shakespeare was born any earlier than the previous Sunday, 23 April. Given that three days would be a reasonable interval between birth and baptism, 23 April has therefore come to be celebrated as his birthday.

        Shakespeare also died on 23 April; in 1616, when he was 52 years of age.


        Meanwhile 275 years later on April 23rd, 1891, Carrie Brown, a.k.a. Shakespeare or Old Shakespeare ( in the press) went to the fifth floor of the East River Hotel and never left.

        NY World
        April 25, 1891
        ******************


        I once read a long article somewhere listing lots of these types of coincidences (Carrie Brown didn’t get a mention of course though) Good spot How.

        Regards

        Michael🔎


        " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

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        • Thanks Mike.

          Two days ago, I tried in vain to find the article in which Eddie Fitzgerald was said to have fallen down in the street while being transferred from the Tombs to the central police court. He was said to have suffered an epileptic fit. I have that article but just can't find it at the moment.
          Anyway...what made me curious is that unless there was some sort of work being done on the Bridge of Sighs....then why would he, already in the Tombs, have been walking in the street when it was customary to walk through the bridge from the Tombs to the police court ? Getting to the point that second guessing everything we read is almost mandatory.





          I came across a paragraph that mentioned the frequency of times ( not the actual number) that Ali was booted out of the hotel and how his practice of eavesdropping and going into rooms was common knowledge and yet there he was on the 23rd.. When I get a chance, I'll hunt it down and then post it. I found that while looking for the Fitzy/epilepsy story.

          Here's something which suggests yours truly may have goofed when I said Frenchy and Mrs. Finnegan had a dust up. This article gives the impression that it was this
          Frenchy 2 and not Ali. I'll do some digging on this one to make sure which one it was. It may well be the other Frenchy since Harrington took the stand at the trial and Finnegan didn't. 80 James Street was three doors down from 86 James....a real rough patch in the Lower East Side....and where Carrie Brown once stayed with One Eyed Tony at 86 James.

          NY World
          April 27, 1891
          *****************

          Harrington




          Finnegan





          I also located this funny one. It's also Huidekoper, not what the Citizen reported.

          Brooklyn Citizen
          June 30, 1891
          *****************



          Dr. Formad was born in 1847....Dr. Huidekoper was born 7 years later in 1854.
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          • Maybe I was right after all.

            This is from the NY Herald on April 27th....and in this article it was Ali who made threats against Mrs. Finnegan.

            New York Herald
            April 17, 1891
            *****************




            More positive stuff on Ali's resume while in the Lower East Side....Byrnes reading off a list of his achievements.

            New York World
            May 1, 1891
            ***************


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            • During the Ali trial, this line was uttered during one of the prosecutor's arguments



              Not so. Ali was arrested in Brooklyn for alleged theft.
              One of several errors made by the attorneys in the case.
              One thing to keep in mind about the conduct of the attorneys is that the case transpired in 1891, not 2022, because several statements made by the prosecution would have definitely been objected to in our time and others definitely not made at all.
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              • That’s quite a coincidence regarding Shakespeare’s date of death. I might have to start looking for a Dane again!

                So, Howard, what do you think of the witness Mary Brennan (same last name as Damon’s driver friend in 1901?) and her saying she and Carrie picked up two guys on 15 Bowery on Monday, one saying he was from Jersey City, NJ, and that Carrie would be seeing them again?

                It’s in the article that mentions Yungstreet Anderson.
                https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...ge7#post590176

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                • That’s quite a coincidence regarding Shakespeare’s date of death. I might have to start looking for a Dane again!

                  So, Howard, what do you think of the witness Mary Brennan (same last name as Damon’s driver friend in 1901?) and her saying she and Carrie picked up two guys on 15 Bowery on Monday, one saying he was from Jersey City, NJ, and that Carrie would be seeming them again?

                  ************************************************** ************************


                  I had posted something about Shakespeare's birthday and Brown's last day on Earth on Facebook 6 days ago. Is that where you saw that ?

                  Brown was released from Blackwell's Island on April 16th. On April 20, the Monday Brennan claimed she and Brown met two dudes in the Bowery...Brown , Ali, and Brennan and one other man were together at Barney Wintermeyer's on the Bowery. Ali and Brown spent the night together in the East River Hotel...and in Room 31...on the 20th...the Monday Brennan claimed they ran into the Jersey City guy. Perhaps Brennan simply got her days mixed up. Personally, I think its an episode to keep in mind if only for the connection to Jersey City.

                  As to the surname Brennan....we've no idea if that was her maiden name or married name or even her real name.
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                  • Mark:

                    I should have also thanked you regarding the last post of yours for bringing up the Mary Brennan story.
                    Some time ago, when I came across the story, I remember thinking that maybe her story was bona fide and yet, the press reporters had screwed up the date, not her. Just remembered that 2 minutes ago.
                    So...maybe it was true but just on a different day. The number of little seemingly insignificant errors the reporters make in this Case are far too often stumbling blocks in establishing a
                    reliable timeline.
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                    • Ali was released from jail on the 13th of April. He had been arrested in Queens, Brooklyn and Manhattan within a short stretch of time.
                      Monday, the 20th...he was with Brown in Room 31 at the Hotel.
                      He was there on Tuesday night, the 21st, because William Mannix told the press about Ali attempting to break in his room while his wife was there on Wednesday morning, the 22nd.
                      He's also there on Wednesday night, the 22nd, with a local woman. Fitzgerald admits to it at the trial. This may be the night Mannix saw Ali nodded out on the floor instead of Thursday night, but nevertheless, Ali was there, so far, for three straight days.
                      He's there on the Thursday night in Room 33. Fitzy took the 25 cents from him and gave it to Sam Shine. This was the night of Brown's fatal encounter with her killer or the man who left the room with the key. Having that key didn't make him a murderer.
                      Four days in a row in that week.

                      Who took the money from him on Monday when he and Brown were there and on Tuesday night ? I'll get back to this later.

                      I'll have some more to add to this thread after I do some checking into something on Saturday morning.

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                      • Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
                        Damon described Brennan as a driver but I think that could still be interpreted as driving horses even in 1901. Or be went to work for him as a truck driver by 1901.


                        Mark...this is an excerpt from Damon's affidavit. In the papers, he refers to him as a 'truck-man'.


                        The next day I told one of my employees, who was familiar with the
                        circumstances, and asked him to walk to the scene of the murder with
                        me, as I did not care to go to that locality alone.


                        Damon, I think, would have said, "I brought one of my employees from home" if he worked on the farm. Damon's stable man in Cranford had a broken arm at the time and Damon mentions this in the newspapers. I feel Brennan worked at 44 Beekman Street, IMHO.
                        Then he could be this Charles Brennan listed as a Car-man.

                        Charles F Brennan
                        in the New York, U.S., State Census, 1892
                        View
                        Charles F Brennan
                        abt 1856
                        United States
                        36
                        Male
                        Citizen
                        Brooklyn, Kings
                        Ward 11
                        18
                        Car man

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                        • This clip from the NY Herald mentions Mary Brennan prior to her going to jail and her claim that she and Brown had been in Wintermeyer's on Wednesday, the 22nd.
                          Not sure if the reporter didn't get the days wrong. She was with Brown on the 20th at the same saloon and Brown, at least, went to the Hotel and stayed in Room 31.
                          New York Herald
                          April 26 ( Sunday) 1891
                          ***************************



                          From The People
                          April 26, 1891
                          ****************



                          The People article mentions Brennan and Brown together on a Monday...the 20th
                          The Herald article mentions the two together on a Wednesday...the 22nd

                          This is the excerpt below from the NY World on April 27th where Brennan states she and Brown were together drinking on a Monday( the 20th) :

                          Bob Dekle suggests and I agree, that the reference made to a 'George' in the People article indicates it was Ali.


                          WHAT MARY BRENNAN HAS TO TELL.

                          Mary Brennan, an inmate of the Essex Market Prison, who, as told in yesterday's WORLD, claimed to be a "pal" of "Shakespeare," was in a more communicative mood yesterday. She was drunk when Justice Ryan sent her to the Island for a month Saturday last, and she only recovered yesterday. She said that she and "Shakespeare" met two men at No. 15 Bowery Monday night last and accompanied them to the East River Hotel. "Shakespeare" occupied room No. 31, and her companion was a man of about thirty-three, and, as she described him, "had a hole in his chin." Mary and "Shakespeare" had breakfast the following morning in the basement opposite No. 15 Bowery, and then they parted. Mary has not seen Shakespeare since.
                          "When the man who was with Shakespeare left her," said Mary, "he said he would soon see her again. He said he came from Jersey City.
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                          • Nice find, Mark..
                            How many Charles Brennans were you able to locate and were any in Manhattan ?
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                            • The Charles F Brennan is a truckman in 1900. He’s listed as Charles Brenan with one N. Then he’s a trucker in 1910. I guess I forgot to look in 92 because I keep thinking he figured into the story in 1901 when it was 91. My apologies if this is old news.

                              ShareCharles Brenan
                              in the 1900 United States Federal Census
                              View
                              Charles Brenan
                              43
                              Nov 1856
                              New York, USA
                              Truckman

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                              • I guess I forgot to look in 92 because I keep thinking he figured into the story in 1901 when it was 91. My apologies if this is old news.



                                Mark:

                                Charles Brennan does figure in on the story in 1891 and in 1901.
                                In 1891, if the story by Damon was true, he accompanied Damon to the East River Hotel to check the key out.
                                In 1901, he also signed an affidavit corroborating Damon's account of their visit to the Hotel.
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