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Carrie Brown/Ameer Ben Ali Discussion Thread Including The Trial & Aftermath

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  • Kattrup
    replied
    Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
    Kasttrup:

    I found that thread concerning Ali and his military service. It's in the PDF
    Thank you very much. So according to the papers, the French Consulate confirmed his service with the Turcos. Enlisted 1870, so in 1891 he would have been older than the 35 his cousin stated. Probably closer to 45.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard Brown
    replied
    Kattrup:

    I found that thread concerning Ali and his military service. It's in the PDF
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • Kattrup
    replied
    Originally posted by Kattrup View Post

    She mentions having “sisters”, and that when she last heard from a sister a year before the trial, her parents were alive and well. I think she ought to be identifiable if there are censuses or birth registrations for Henry from the latter half of the 19th century.
    She also mentions that her husband resided with his mother when he died in 1881.
    Hmm, I just noticed that in 1881, her parents and sisters were living in White Plains, NY. But in 1887 they were in Henry, IL.

    So maybe I was too quick to suppose Henry her home town.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kattrup
    replied
    Originally posted by Kattrup View Post
    Yes, thanks - I’ve read that, she gives a bit more info at the trial where she mentions her home town of Henry.

    Though she leaves out her family’s name, I think Henry is sufficiently small that she may yet be identified. She mentions siblings, I think, at least one sister. Her parents were alive until 1888 or later, I think she last heard from them three years before the trial. Will have to check.
    She mentions having “sisters”, and that when she last heard from a sister a year before the trial, her parents were alive and well. I think she ought to be identifiable if there are censuses or birth registrations for Henry from the latter half of the 19th century.
    She also mentions that her husband resided with his mother when he died in 1881.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard Brown
    replied
    Richard Widmark lived in Henry for a period of time. If they made a movie and needed someone cast in the role of C. Kniclo or the Danish Farmhand, the half-Swedish Widmark would be a good choice.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kattrup
    replied
    Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post

    Here's Alice Sullivan at the Coroner Inquest in the PDF....East River Echo Number 203
    Yes, thanks - I’ve read that, she gives a bit more info at the trial where she mentions her home town of Henry.

    Though she leaves out her family’s name, I think Henry is sufficiently small that she may yet be identified. She mentions siblings, I think, at least one sister. Her parents were alive until 1888 or later, I think she last heard from them three years before the trial. Will have to check.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard Brown
    replied
    Ha ha !!!! Sorry, Kattrup ! I tried to delete that at work...all thumbs with posting with a cell phone. Besides, Baphomet never answers questions on these boards. He's a prick is what he is.

    Here's Alice Sullivan at the Coroner Inquest in the PDF....East River Echo Number 203
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • Kattrup
    replied
    Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
    6666666
    Not sure what that means, are you attempting to summon the Beast?

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard Brown
    replied
    6666666

    Leave a comment:


  • Kattrup
    replied
    Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
    Nice, Kattrup !
    How did you discover she lived in Illinois ?

    She discusses her past at the Coroner Inquest...is that how you found this info ?
    No, it’s all from the trial transcript.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard Brown
    replied
    Nice, Kattrup !
    How did you discover she lived in Illinois ?

    She discusses her past at the Coroner Inquest...is that how you found this info ?

    Leave a comment:


  • Kattrup
    replied
    Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
    Nina did some checking into Mary Ann Lopez's background today.

    At the Coroner Inquest ( May 13-14)....Lopez ( father's name Bernard, born in Ireland and a laborer, mother Bridget, lived on Canal Street, Albany, 4 siblings) states she was 28 years old, that her surname was Freel and had lived with a man named Alfonso Lopez on Cherry Street.

    Her true name was Malone. Her mother's maiden name was Freel. She intentionally gave the Court a false surname and was caught doing it....and was not married to Al Lopez. It was common for women to assume the surname of the man they were living with.

    Biggest whopper from this big mama was the lie about her age.

    She is listed in the NY records in 1855 as 2 years old...making her birth year 1853
    In the 1870 NY records she is listed as a 16 year old....making her birth year 1854.
    In the 1875 NY records she is listed as a 20 year old....making her birth year 1855

    This means she was anywhere from 38 ( 1855 records)...37 ( 1870 records ) or 36 ( 1875 records) at the time of the 1891 trial.
    Interesting.

    I tried looking for Alice Sullivan, but don't have much insight into US sources.

    She was from Henry Township, Marshall County, IL, and had lived with her husband X Sullivan in West Desplaines Street 176, Chicago, for some years. Her husband was a cooper at Scoville and Gates in Chicago. She came to NY with her husband, he then died on 11th May, 1881.

    She withheld her maiden name at the trial, not wanting it out in public.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael Banks
    replied
    Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
    One researcher is on record as stating that it is unproven whether Damon would have come forward in the instance Ali had been convicted and issued a first degree ( electrocution) sentence.

    I'd like to respond to this because Mr. Solid Citizen's deeds need more light shone upon them..

    First of all, there are 9 periods of time and events in which Damon should have come forward, from the day he realized what he had and up to the day he finally caved in after being outed by John R. Lee.

    Before I list them, I'd like to point out to folks that when you read his affidavit....whether it is true or not....every element of that affidavit covers what Damon decided immediately upon finding out the key's significance and shortly after. None of the content reflects his thoughts in the year 1892....a few years later in 1895....lets try 1899....only what his initial feelings were from finding the key to his alleged trip to the Hotel. The ten years after this alleged trip are a blank. No point in time where he reconsidered hanging on to it. No mention in the affidavit such as , "You know, in 1897 at the time of one of the 3 earlier pardon campaigns, I sort of felt like I should come forward then." No remorse and no trace of an apology in the affidavit.

    Moving along....what if, since the belief that Prof. Dekle and I, for two examples, believe he would never have come forward, what if he HAD come forward...an 11th hour appearance just as the State was sentencing Ali to the hot seat....maybe being the fifth electrocuted man in July 1891 ( 4 in one shot at Sing Sing during that month) ?
    If Damon had concerns about his reputation...then just imagine the scrutiny he and his family would have been placed under by the press. It would have been front page news coast to coast and not in a favorable way. His business might suffer, no doubt.....but the real problem Damon would have is if he had been grilled by Wellman for this wait until the last second act.

    Imagine Wellman dragging in Damon and his family to be quizzed as to when he had the key. Imagine people reading about this back in say, July of 1891 right at the conclusion of the trial.
    Imagine Damon trying to wriggle out of his irresponsibility. Imagine being told that the state went to a lot of trouble putting together a case ( circumstantial ) against a man the state believed was guilty and now here comes someone who could have prevented a coroner inquest which found Ali guilty and a very public trial with the same result.

    I mentioned it earlier that the content of Damon's affidavit are only reflective of his decisions from the time he discovered the importance of the key right to the point he went with Brennan to verify it being a Hotel key.

    Now imagine Wellman slicing through Damon like a knife through hot butter by asking him why didn't he come forward when he went to the hotel and found out it was from there ?
    If he gave the D.A.. the same story he would tell ten years later, Damon may have been charged with obstruction of justice based on his intentional suppression of evidence.....or, at least, his name would have been mud.
    It is good to remember that the story he gave in 1901 is probably the only one he would have been able to come up with at the time of the trial in 1891. None of his affidavit spiel goes beyond May of 1891...

    These are those 9 periods of time and events in order :

    1. The moment he realized the significance of the key.
    2. Pre-Coroner Inquest ( May 13-14)
    3. Post Coroner Inquest ( Ali charged ) up into June
    4. June 24th when the trial for first degree murder began filling juror seats
    5. July 3rd when he was sentenced to life in Sing Sing. Ever see a cell at Sing Sing ? A trip to the electric chair was probably preferable to some men rather than sit there for the rest of their life.
    6. The 10 year Gap....July 1891- late 1900, early 1901.
    Within the Gap :
    7-9 : The three pardon campaigns which were front page news.
    Also, when news of Ali being diagnosed as insane was front page news...which Damon was indifferent to....not to mention how Damon's irresponsibility played a role in Ali nearly killing a teenager while incarcerated.not long before a pardon campaign was launched when Frank Black was Governor.

    My point is this. Damon would have never come forward and in fact, couldn't come forward considering how he would be roasted by the press and Wellman & Co.

    Any thoughts ?
    I agree 100% How. From the moment he came into possession of the key the only time that we might conjecture that he ‘might’ have been considering coming forward with the key was when he supposedly visited the ERH with Brennan in an attempt to confirm the authenticity of the key and that’s only because it’s difficult to come up with a reason for him doing that if he wasn’t considering handing it in.

    Its also perhaps worth mentioning that he could have come forward with the key at some point, perhaps up to point 4 on your list, and still saved face. He could easily have lied about the discovery of the key and the shirt. For example he might have come forward during the trial or just after the verdict and sentencing and said “my servant checked an old, rarely used cupboard last night and found this shirt and key. We saw that the number was the same as the room where that old woman was murdered. The last person that we can remember using that cupboard was……” At that point he could have saved Ali without any stain on his honesty or integrity but he chose not to. So I’d say that just after his visit to the ERH he made the decision not to come forward with the key and he stuck to it until Loose Lips Lee dropped him in it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard Brown
    replied
    Nina did some checking into Mary Ann Lopez's background today.

    At the Coroner Inquest ( May 13-14)....Lopez ( father's name Bernard, born in Ireland and a laborer, mother Bridget, lived on Canal Street, Albany, 4 siblings) states she was 28 years old, that her surname was Freel and had lived with a man named Alfonso Lopez on Cherry Street.

    Her true name was Malone. Her mother's maiden name was Freel. She intentionally gave the Court a false surname and was caught doing it....and was not married to Al Lopez. It was common for women to assume the surname of the man they were living with.

    Biggest whopper from this big mama was the lie about her age.

    She is listed in the NY records in 1855 as 2 years old...making her birth year 1853
    In the 1870 NY records she is listed as a 16 year old....making her birth year 1854.
    In the 1875 NY records she is listed as a 20 year old....making her birth year 1855

    This means she was anywhere from 38 ( 1855 records)...37 ( 1870 records ) or 36 ( 1875 records) at the time of the 1891 trial.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard Brown
    replied
    One researcher is on record as stating that it is unproven whether Damon would have come forward in the instance Ali had been convicted and issued a first degree ( electrocution) sentence.

    I'd like to respond to this because Mr. Solid Citizen's deeds need more light shone upon them..

    First of all, there are 9 periods of time and events in which Damon should have come forward, from the day he realized what he had and up to the day he finally caved in after being outed by John R. Lee.

    Before I list them, I'd like to point out to folks that when you read his affidavit....whether it is true or not....every element of that affidavit covers what Damon decided immediately upon finding out the key's significance and shortly after. None of the content reflects his thoughts in the year 1892....a few years later in 1895....lets try 1899....only what his initial feelings were from finding the key to his alleged trip to the Hotel. The ten years after this alleged trip are a blank. No point in time where he reconsidered hanging on to it. No mention in the affidavit such as , "You know, in 1897 at the time of one of the 3 earlier pardon campaigns, I sort of felt like I should come forward then." No remorse and no trace of an apology in the affidavit.

    Moving along....what if, since the belief that Prof. Dekle and I, for two examples, believe he would never have come forward, what if he HAD come forward...an 11th hour appearance just as the State was sentencing Ali to the hot seat....maybe being the fifth electrocuted man in July 1891 ( 4 in one shot at Sing Sing during that month) ?
    If Damon had concerns about his reputation...then just imagine the scrutiny he and his family would have been placed under by the press. It would have been front page news coast to coast and not in a favorable way. His business might suffer, no doubt.....but the real problem Damon would have is if he had been grilled by Wellman for this wait until the last second act.

    Imagine Wellman dragging in Damon and his family to be quizzed as to when he had the key. Imagine people reading about this back in say, July of 1891 right at the conclusion of the trial.
    Imagine Damon trying to wriggle out of his irresponsibility. Imagine being told that the state went to a lot of trouble putting together a case ( circumstantial ) against a man the state believed was guilty and now here comes someone who could have prevented a coroner inquest which found Ali guilty and a very public trial with the same result.

    I mentioned it earlier that the content of Damon's affidavit are only reflective of his decisions from the time he discovered the importance of the key right to the point he went with Brennan to verify it being a Hotel key.

    Now imagine Wellman slicing through Damon like a knife through hot butter by asking him why didn't he come forward when he went to the hotel and found out it was from there ?
    If he gave the D.A.. the same story he would tell ten years later, Damon may have been charged with obstruction of justice based on his intentional suppression of evidence.....or, at least, his name would have been mud.
    It is good to remember that the story he gave in 1901 is probably the only one he would have been able to come up with at the time of the trial in 1891. None of his affidavit spiel goes beyond May of 1891...

    These are those 9 periods of time and events in order :

    1. The moment he realized the significance of the key.
    2. Pre-Coroner Inquest ( May 13-14)
    3. Post Coroner Inquest ( Ali charged ) up into June
    4. June 24th when the trial for first degree murder began filling juror seats
    5. July 3rd when he was sentenced to life in Sing Sing. Ever see a cell at Sing Sing ? A trip to the electric chair was probably preferable to some men rather than sit there for the rest of their life.
    6. The 10 year Gap....July 1891- late 1900, early 1901.
    Within the Gap :
    7-9 : The three pardon campaigns which were front page news.
    Also, when news of Ali being diagnosed as insane was front page news...which Damon was indifferent to....not to mention how Damon's irresponsibility played a role in Ali nearly killing a teenager while incarcerated.not long before a pardon campaign was launched when Frank Black was Governor.

    My point is this. Damon would have never come forward and in fact, couldn't come forward considering how he would be roasted by the press and Wellman & Co.

    Any thoughts ?

    Leave a comment:

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