No announcement yet.

Carrie Brown/Ameer Ben Ali Discussion Thread Including The Trial & Aftermath

  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • I've updated Post 490...having found an article mentioning J. Buckley & E. Murphy in room 30. I know I've seen the name Warder as well as James Wilson's name in articles concerning the fifth floor registered guests. It'll take me time, but I'll eventually get 'em.

    On another note, I made an error ( somewhere in the section) when I referred to the Bridge of Sighs being situated between the Tombs & The Central Court in 1891.
    The Bridge of Sighs was in place in 1902.

    28 J. Welch
    29 D. Connor & Wife
    30 J. Buckley & E.Murphy
    31 C. Kniclo ( entered by Thompson after the discovery of the corpse on April 24th )
    32 .. ? Reilly
    33 Ali ( Ali's name is not found in the register report states it was
    34. No entry yet
    35. No entry yet

    Is it possible that William Mannix and wife were in either room 34 or room 35 ? I think it was
    Possibly, that James Wilson was in one of those two rooms.


    • Originally posted by Howard Brown
      The first mention of door locks in relation to this case, that I know of, came up in Richard Underwood's 'Gaslight Lawyers' ( 2017).
      On page 49 of his book, Underwood states, "Actually, the doorknobs appear to have been button-like devices."
      So Underwood actually correctly identified the doorknobs as "buttons" or "dummy doorknobs". There were no mortise buttons to lock the door by disabling a working doorknob.


      • So Underwood actually correctly identified the doorknobs as "buttons" or "dummy doorknobs". There were no mortise buttons to lock the door by disabling a working doorknob.

        I understand what he stated as saying as that there wasn't a working doorknob with a lock affixed to the knob...... that doesn't necessarily mean that there wasn't an alternative method of locking the door on the jamb, though. Frink described the doorknob at the trial in the same way ....but he, or anyone else for that matter at that time, didn't mention whether it was possible to lock the door without a key by depressing a button on the jamb. Of course, Prof. Dekle suggests it being a method of locking the door in his book but that doesn't make it so, either.


        • Off the topic for a moment....

          "Of further interest is a note in the Bulletin of the Pasteur Institute for the quarter April-June 1897, providing support for Dr. Gibier's
          trial testimony regarding possible sources of tyrosine and contradicting the testimony of the prosecution's experts that it could only be found
          in the small intestine." -Page 78 Gaslight Lawyers,
          Richard Underwood, 2017

          What is interesting about this is that it may mean Gibier didn't have proof for another source of tyrosine at the time of the trial ( 1891 )
          six full years before this 'note' in the Bulletin appeared. Otherwise, if he had concrete evidence at the time in 1891, why didn't he provide it at that
          time ? Might need to look into this further....I can't get my hands on a copy of that Bulletin from 1897.....and I wonder where Underwood did as he does
          not give a link to where he found it..

          I tried to locate a definitive answer as to where tyrosine appears in the body and if there was another source for it in the body ( without consulting
          an actual physician) and this is what I came up with in 2022 :

          On a side note...Dr. Gibier, according to this Buffalo Morning Express article from January 17, 1892, appears
          to have speculated that author Guy de Maupassant had paresis due to 'overwork, lack of sleep, and the use of narcotics'. This isn't so. de Maupassant
          died after suffering from syphilis ( possibly obtained from his mother.....his brother also had syphilis) for decades.

          Gibier also supposedly said he had a cure for epilepsy. ( Brooklyn Daily Citizen....December 27, 1892)....130 years ago.
          There is no cure for epilepsy.

          His anti-Catholicism is mentioned here :


          • I have yet to see a door locking mechanism with a button on a mortise that engages a lock. They all “disengage” the doorknob.


            • Bubeleh:

              I am putting together an email for Prof. Dekle in order that he can explain his take on this issue.
              I just told Mike Banks that I was hoping a conclusive solution to this issue would be found by one of may have been solved already....but I'll see what Bob says.


              • Correction:

                Nina wanted me to post this. It appears tyrosine can also be found in the liver and apparently all through the body. It is an essential amino acid,
                I have to go back to Flint's medical reports and determine why it was considered only found in the small intestine. Cheese is a good source for tyrosine ( Dr. von Liebig found it in cheese in the 1840's

                L-Tyrosine or tyrosine (symbol Tyr or Y) or 4-hydroxyphenylalanine is one of the 20 standard amino acids that are used by cells to synthesize proteins. It is a non-essential amino acid with a polar side group. The word "tyrosine" is from the Greek tyrós, meaning cheese, as it was first discovered in 1846 by German chemist Justus von Liebig in the protein casein from cheese. It is called tyrosyl when referred to as a functional group or side chain. While tyrosine is generally classified as a hydrophobic amino acid, it is more hydrophilic than phenylalanine. It is encoded by the codons UAC and UAU in messenger RNA.


                • Getting away from the door knob, fingernails, door locks etc.... and back to this area of the section.

                  I'll be putting up some odds and ends out of my collection of articles and clippings.


                  • First up....a clipping with a reference to Eddie Fitzgerald experiencing an epileptic fit on the street two days after the body of Brown was found.

                    New York Sun
                    April 26, 1891


                    • Next, a clipping concerning James Jennings, hotel proprietor, who is stated to have been a churchman....yet owns the most notorious whorehouse in the vicinity.

                      That $50,000 figure equals $1,627,890.11 in 2022 dollars.

                      211 Henry Street is one mile from the site of the hotel.

                      New York Herald
                      April 26, 1891


                      • One of the mysteries in the early days of the murder investigation is why Inspector Byrnes considered elements of the story Mary Miniter told as being false. She certainly didn't waver from her description of C. Kniclo at any time prior to the trial and while on the witness stand.

                        Nevertheless, Byrnes is quoted savaging Miniter's character severely in this report. Like the other whores put on the witness stand who had their lifestyles put under the microscope, she stood up as well as any of them. She remains a seminal figure in the case prior to the July 3rd verdict.

                        Miniter was 21 going on 50.

                        New York Sun
                        May 1, 1891


                        • An earlier death of a woman at the hotel....and in Room 1887, if the reference to Thompson's slaying of Slattery in 1886 is correct.
                          The details to the murder have been tough to come by so far.

                          New York Sun
                          April 25, 1891


                          • Two museums in Manhattan didn't wait long before displaying their interpretation of the murder of Brown in wax.

                            The Eden Musee being one of them. More info in the PDF

                            Sylvester Zefferino Poli (December 31, 1858 – May 31, 1937) was an Italian immigrant to the USA who became a theatre magnate during the late 1800s and early decades of the 20th century. By 1916 he controlled 30 theatres, and was heralded as the largest individual theatre owner in the world at that time, establishing himself throughout the Northeastern United States. Starting with a career in wax sculpting, he quickly moved on to dime museums, curios, variety shows, and ultimately vaudeville theatres and movie palaces.


                            ************************************************** ************************************************** *********************************
                            The Doris Musee

                            Attached Files


                            • This may be just another example of the often confusing and convoluted items we find within the body of pre-trial
                              statements & press reports that exist. On the other hand it might have some validity.

                              Whether it does or not, that's up to the reader. Wading through the mine field of lackadaisical reporting in the early days, these sorts
                              of stories pop up pretty frequently....all attempts on the part of the 'professional reporters' to scoop their competitors. Just because
                              someone was in the profession of journalism ( beat reporters), doesn't mean they themselves were always professional in how they
                              managed to present information to the public.

                              One of the rules that existed at the East River Hotel was that single men not be permitted to rent rooms on the fifth floor.
                              At the Coroner Inquest, Tommy Thompson, after being recalled to the witness chair, reflected on two instances of Ali getting
                              physical with an unnamed woman and Mary Ann Lopez. The incident with Lopez transpired in the Fall of 1890 ( September).

                              Getting to the point. Sam Shine stated that the policy of permitting no single men on the fifth floor came about because men, not
                              just Ali apparently, had a tendency to go stag and wander around the top floor. Eddie Fitzgerald stated ,while on the stand, he was
                              unaware of this policy although he had been at the hotel for 'two or three months'.

                              The fact that Fitzgerald took twenty five pennies from Ali and that Shine acknowledged this transaction demonstrates an instance
                              of hotel rules not being enforced. Shine admits that since Ali was already up on the fifth floor to let him stay. Probably not the only
                              time he went up alone and the best we can do is to speculate as to how often.

                              We know that Officer Adam Lang accompanied by Mary Ann Lopez, came up on Ali loitering on Water St on the evening of the 24th. The investigation
                              began in the afternoon and within hours, Ali had been picked up, originally as a witness. One might consider that the
                              fact it was Lopez who pointed Ali out to Lang may have been payback for the aforementioned 'arm biting' incident from 1890, an incident
                              that left Lopez scarred. There were numerous women milling around the hotel shortly after the discovery of Brown's corpse, but it was
                              Lopez who, perhaps coincidentally or not, who would assist in Lang's detention of Ali. Ali was not originally arrested as
                              a murder suspect.

                              Going back to the coroner report....Fitzgerald, as we know, stated Ali gave him 25 pennies and went up by himself to room 33. However,
                              while being cross examined ( page 68 of the coroner report transcript), he states that :

                              " and on the night of the murder he went up with a woman too..."

                              This 'night of the murder' was the 23rd. Fitzgerald stated that Ali had been with a woman on the night of the 22nd, a Wednesday...which
                              is a certainty....Ali being at the hotel at least 3 nights, probably 4, that week. But the night of the murder with a woman, too ?

                              It's more than likely that this was a mistake on his part. It's very likely that most of those testifying at the inquest were a little
                              nervous as all eyes were on them. Thompson wasn't and neither were the medical men, but the women and Fitzgerald were likely to have been.

                              If that's the case and it merely being a case of the jitters on Fitzgerald's part...then is there anything else which might make us think it may have been true ?

                              Perhaps this will......

                              In re-reading newspapers outside of the Manhattan area, I stumbled across a San Francisco Examiner article ( William Randolph Hearst's
                              paper handed down from his father, George) dated April 26.... with an accurate description of events of the 25th.

                              I doubt that the Examiner pulled that reference to Lopez from out of the bottom of a hat.
                              If true, would it explain why Lopez, out of all the women who were available & who hung out in the hotel, was the one who accompanied Lang ?

                              Likely a goof on Fitzy's part and a gaffe on the Examiner's part , but like so many other things in the interesting bit.