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Carrie Brown/Ameer Ben Ali Discussion Thread Including The Trial & Aftermath

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  • #61
    The corridor was only 3’6” across. With all of those people up there it’s unlikely anyone would have looked at the floor. It must have been like an underground train at 5pm.
    Regards

    Michael🔎


    " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

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    • #62
      Thanks Mike....you're correct in that it was 42 inches across not 44.
      Factor in the dirt on the floor ( It wasn't the Mark Hopkins or London Hilton) and the fact that the police ( Connor) were not required to announce to reporters, "Hey ! Look ! I found blood on the door handle !!"....we might consider it a case of simply not seeing what they weren't actively looking for,

      The whole thing stinks like last week's fish if we consider the absence of any refutation in the Sun, where 5 of the 9 affiants had worked in April 1891....and the delay in coming forward.
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      • #63
        Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
        [I]

        3. Regarding Riis....his March 8th, 1901 affidavit has him denying seeing any blood on the floor...on the door of Room 33...in Room 33.
        I think it likely that he wasn't looking for blood. I can't prove that nor could I swear to him looking for it and not seeing it.
        Nevertheless, he, like George Damon and the others, has some explaining to do about the 10 year gap in his coming forward.

        Theodore Roosevelt is credited with calling Riis the most useful citizen in New York City'.
        Fair point.
        But just not during the period from Ali's sentencing in July 1891 to March 8, 1901.
        Perhaps I’m missing something How but the point that’s niggling is this….

        Riis went to the hotel at noon. (With Connor, Schultze and other reporters)

        Connor didn’t discover the blood in the corridor until 4.00 (so after Riis, Schultze and co had left)

        Riis however said that he’d been in room 33 and seen no blood there or in the corridor.

        As Riis said “(afterward said to have been)” we know that at the time of his visit Frenchy wasn’t spoken of as a suspect.

        “I heard of the murder at the East River Hotel in New York City, since known as the “Shakespeare murder”; and went at once to the Hotel, arriving there about [noon] on that day. I examined the place carefully, viewing the room where the murder was committed and that [afterward said to have been] occupied by Ben Ali or “Frenchy,” who is now serving a life sentence after conviction of the crime; nor did I see any blood spots on the outside or the inside of the door of the room so [said to have been] occupied by “Frenchy,” or inside of such room; and to the best of my knowledge and belief there were no blood spots on the floor of the hall or in or around the room [said to have been] occupied by “Frenchy” on the night of the murder.50”

        So my point is…..was Riis telling the truth in his affidavit about entering room 33? If Conner hadn’t found the blood at that time what reason would he (or Riis) have had for entering room 33?

        Regards

        Michael🔎


        " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

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        • #64
          So my point is…..was Riis telling the truth in his affidavit about entering room 33? If Conner hadn’t found the blood at that time what reason would he (or Riis) have had for entering room 33?

          Mike...your guess is as good as mine. I hate to be vague or seem indifferent by not offering a solid answer to your question.
          I'm not prepared to dismiss Riis as being a fable maker,....but the thought has entered my mind.
          It's no secret that Riis once walked through Manhattan with Theodore Roosevelt at night coming up upon beat cops who were not doing their job ( Cooping).
          It's also little known that Riis had animosity towards police authority stemming from an incident in which his dog was beaten to death in front of him by a policeman in a local precinct.

          https://untappedcities.com/2015/02/1...policy-in-nyc/

          It's not unreasonable, I feel, that his long held animus towards the police and sentiments for the 'underdog' might have been at play here.....but it, obviously, doesn't include the other newspapermen and their depositions. Just a thought.



          This year President’s Day comes on the heels of the coldest night of the winter, a fitting time to remember that one of our favorite president’s, Teddy Roosevelt, once kicked thousands of homeless people into the streets.

          The story begins with Jacob Riis and his puppy. Riis is best known for his photo essay, How the Other Half Lives, a damning expose New York’s tenements. But before he was a famous social reformer, the Danish immigrant was on hard times himself, struggling with homelessness in the 1870s.

          One cold night of wandering led to a chance encounter with a little dog, who loyally followed him around the city. When Riis sought refuge in a police lodging house, the dog was denied entry. Riis awoke in the middle of the night to find another lodger had robbed him. When he complained to a policeman, he was called a liar and thrown out of the lodging house.

          His loyal friend, who had been patiently waiting at the door, reacted to seeing Riis treated this way by attacking the policeman and biting his leg. The policeman grabbed the dog and smashed him against the station steps, killing him. Riis was beside himself with grief and rage, and pinpoints this exact moment as launching his life as a social activist.


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          • #65
            Before I forget this...and I'm sure you would have brought it up at some point, Mike....

            Coroner Lewis Shultze, whose amateurish handling of the crime scene, probably more reflective of the social norm ( Dead whore does not equal Dead Uptown socialite) in how he allowed 9-10 people to waltz around in the grimy hotel and in the actual room itself, is responsible for the myth that endures to this day of planted blood. Had Schultze been a little more professional, no affidavits, save the three by Damon, Lee, and Brennan, would have ever been filed.


            It is also noteworthy that if there were 9-11 reporters present at the time Schultze was handling or mishandling the corpse of Carrie Brown, only the 4 Sun reporters except the ardent anti-British, eventual Bolshevik sympathizer, NY Herald reporter, Charles Edward Russell, filed affidavits. That means half of the reporters didn't come forward in support of Ali and to counter the blood stain claims.
            Russell believed Jack The Ripper committed the murders and said as much in his 1913 newspaper article in a fly-over state ( Kansas) newspaper entitled, The Coming Nation and the error filled 1931 magazine article in Illustrated Detective Magazine.
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            • #66
              Witnesses At The Coroner's Inquest May 13-14, 1891

              Louis W. Schultze, Coroner
              ***************************


              Day One

              Mary Corcoran, hotel housekeeper
              Capt. Richard O'Connor
              Officer Michael Crowley
              Detective Jeremiah Griffin
              Officer John Mullarkey
              Dr .William Jenkins
              Frederick Reinart, draftsman
              Edward Fitzgerald, hotel employee
              Dr. Cyrus Edson

              Day Two

              (Dr. Edson returns to stand)
              Mary Miniter, asst. to Mary Corcoran, non employee of hotel, first to encounter Brown & C. Kniclo
              Samuel Shine, hotel bartender
              Thomas Thompson, manager of East River Hotel
              Officer Adam Lang, arrested Ameer Ben Ali
              John Jandas, doorman at 4th police precinct
              Officer William Frink
              Captain William MacLaughlin
              Det. Sgt. George Aloncle
              Mary Ann Lopez, local whore
              Officer Ernest Meyer
              Alice Sullivan, local prostitute
              Mary Harrington, 49 Oliver Street, lent out rooms for prostitution
              Edwin Smith, in jail with Ali in Queens Cty. Jail
              David Gilway, in jail with Ali in Queens Cty. Jail
              Theodore Miller, in jail with Ali in Queens Cty. Jail
              Henry Sharkey, Under-sheriff of Queens County
              Officer John Connor, Brooklyn PD...through him it is learned the correct name of Ameer Ben Ali, arrested in July 1890 in Brooklyn.

              Coroner's Jury :

              Thomas J. Brennan,
              James Trainor
              Charles Iden,
              George Brockway,
              Henry C. Miner,
              George T. Putney,
              Alexander F. Slaughter
              Jacob Ruppert, Jr.,
              Louis J. Merkel,
              August Strassburg,

              Verdict, May 14, 1891 :
              We, the Coroners Jury find that Carrie Brown., alias Shakespeare, came to her death by asphyxiation at the hands of Ameer Ren Ali, alias
              George Frank, on or about the 24th day of April 1891
              at the East River or Fourth Ward Hotel, corner of
              Water Street and Catharine Slip, New York city.







              Note : Ali was charged with grand larceny in Brooklyn brought against him by George Frank on or about
              July 26th, 1890, 73 Hudson Avenue, Brooklyn...a theft which in 2021 dollars would equal $ 5,500 dollars ( $ 182.50 in 1890 dollars.

              This theft was of The following articles:
              Seven boxes of lemons. one box of pears, one box of apples,
              one half water-melon - one box of dates. one box of figs,
              and about one thousand quarts of nuts. One gold watch
              and a silver watch and any quantity of household goods in
              all valued at 182.50.

              One thousand quarts of nuts !!!!!!!

              In the cross examination of Officer John Connor of Brooklyn by Francis Wellman
              we learn that Ali never stood trial.

              In the sessions he pleaded not guilty to grand larceny ( of complainant George Frank)
              and withdrew the plea and pleaded guilty to petty larceny,
              He was discharged finally at, his own recognizance to appear when required for sentence.
              He was never required to appear for sentencing.


              It is a curious fact that he was charged for murder under the name George Frank and the trial transcript bears the name George Frank to this day.

              Might the use of the name George Frank hint at being a bit of retaliation or revenge ?










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              • #67
                That was something I’d meant to ask a few days ago How but I forgot. Why was he tried as George Frank when they knew very well what his real name was? It’s not important but I thought it curious.

                Regards

                Michael🔎


                " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

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                • #68
                  Mike:

                  It is curious....and in fact, the official trial transcript is registered as :

                  People of the State of New York v George Frank also known as Amir ben Ali; alias 'Frenchy'

                  Nina and I think Ali got the shitty end of the stick in his business dealings with Frank. We need to do more research on this.....


                  Here's the list of Trial Witnesses :


                  The Witnesses at the Trial, June 26-July 3, 1891

                  John Mullarkey
                  John Connor
                  Richard O'Connor
                  Adam Lang
                  Michael Crowley
                  Jeremiah Griffin
                  James Hiland
                  William Frink
                  John Jandas
                  George Aloncle
                  William Mclaughlin
                  William Winckle
                  Thomas Byrnes
                  Henry Formad
                  Austin Flint
                  Cyrus Edson
                  Rush Huidekoper
                  Paul Gibier
                  Justin Herold
                  Henry Mott
                  Louis Schultze
                  William Jenkins
                  Edward Smith
                  David Gilway
                  Theodore Miller
                  Catherine McGovern
                  Jacob Berliner
                  Frank Reinart
                  Mary Lopez
                  Alice Sullivan
                  Nellie English
                  Mary Miniter
                  Mary Harrington
                  Mary Healey
                  Eddie Fitzgerald
                  Mary Corcoran
                  Samuel Shine
                  ..and Ameer Ben Ali
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                  • #69
                    Mike:

                    I have all of the NY Evening World newspapers which covered the murder and trial.....I'll start with the second wave ( June 24-July 10, 1891) with a PDF per day.

                    Eventually, I'll post the first wave ( April 24-May 19)....


                    This is from June 24th, 1891
                    Attached Files
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                    • #70
                      New York Evening World
                      June 25, 1891

                      Attached Files
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                      • #71
                        Thanks How
                        Regards

                        Michael🔎


                        " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Mike:

                          Concerning the 'blood evidence was planted' theory....

                          IF the police planted blood on the first or second day ( either prior to his arrest on the 24th or afterwards on the 25th....)....then it needs to be explained why they went to such lengths looking for the blonde C. Kniclo up to April 30th ( the day when Ali was formally charged ) and afterwards..... In the 'Modoc' article, defense lawyer House suggested that the police were still searching for C. Kniclo after the formal charge....more on that later.

                          It makes absolutely no sense to contact Washington D.C for information concerning an unnamed individual....hop on a ship in the East River and examine a man on the vessel.... ...dragging Miniter all over the place with officers to give a good once over to men with long noses and blonde hair....arrest ( 40 by one count...more by another) men left and right, waste manpower, question La Bruckman's whereabouts, confer with Brooklyn police, send men to New Jersey....all after the alleged planting of blood.....if they had planted blood evidence with the full intent of charging him for the crime, which, if it was planted, would have occurred almost immediately after they planted it !

                          It didn't. He was formally charged over 5 days later.
                          All the things above occurred within those 5 days.....and after it is alleged they planted blood.


                          Your thoughts.....


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                          • #73
                            Couldn’t agree more How. The planting of evidence would have meant a 100% focus and determination on getting their man, Ali. Let’s face it what could they have done if they’d found Kniclo and he’d confessed to the murder? How could the blood on Ali then be explained? It makes no sense.

                            So we have blood on Ali - allegedly planted by the Police.
                            Blood leading to, and at number 33 - allegedly planted by the Press.

                            All that’s needed now is the suggestion that witnesses like Nellie English were paid.

                            I did consider whether the police might have planted evidence for two reasons - 1) C.Kniclo/Glenmore Man/ Damon’s Dane, and 2) the fact that we know that police corruption did exist. But as you’ve pointed out it doesn’t add, up just like the claim that the Press added blood seems dubious to say the least.

                            I still think it’s possible that Ali might have gone into number 31 looking for sex and got blood on him though. He then thinks that there’s no way he can admit to being in that room and he certainly couldn’t change his story later on. Miniter and Kelly’s descriptions surely can’t be a coincidence? So I think it’s possible that he might not have been the killer. Possible.

                            Then again…..
                            Regards

                            Michael🔎


                            " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

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                            • #74
                              I still think it’s possible that Ali might have gone into number 31 looking for sex and got blood on him though. He then thinks that there’s no way he can admit to being in that room and he certainly couldn’t change his story later on. Miniter and Kelly’s descriptions surely can’t be a coincidence? So I think it’s possible that he might not have been the killer. Possible.

                              -Mike Banks


                              Not only possible to me, Mike...but it's exactly what I think happened.
                              I think that in a rare moment of honesty, Ali did tell that interpreter that he only went in the room after she was dead taking or not taking anything...but at least, rifling through the woman's pockets.
                              Sure is a far different guy than some people would have us believe....an innocent rube in a foreign land desperately trying to get back home to the wife and children.

                              There's still, as we both know, a whole lot of other themes within this case to tackle.
                              Thanks for the reply, boss.
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                              • #75
                                One other thing....

                                How would the police know how suspect-worthy the man in room 33 was so early on if the blood was planted on the 24th or 25th ? Why that room to plant blood in or on ?
                                How would they know he was such a veritable gift of a suspect with all the lies...his habits....track record with the Queens County police...when they didn't know his true name until well after his arrest ?
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