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Souvenir From A Kill For The '13th Juror'

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  • #16
    The blood does appear convincing but….as you say, could there be another explanation? With the knowledge that they had at the time how certain can we be? If Ali was guilty wouldn’t he at least have had some kind of clean up before leaving the hotel? If only washing his hands. No signs of blood in a sink anywhere? Would he have just walked away with bloodied hands?
    -Mike Banks-


    One possible solution which would take Ali out of the picture (and originally conceived by Bob Dekle) is that :

    A. C Kniclo murdered her...hence the blood on the shirt and absence of the key

    B. Ali, with a documented track record of going in and out of other apartments ( The incident with Mrs. Mannix and then the evening described by Nellie English) that he wasn't renting....goes in after C. Kniclo leaves...takes whatever she has from her pockets...and gets in contact with her blood AND lint from the bedsheet ( changed probably every time Halley's Comet came around ). Had he murdered her, his nails would have been filled with blood...any lint or dust or other material would come off the first time he wiped his hands...but not the blood, which would have been in ample amount. That might explain things and may be a demonstration of Ali actually telling the truth for once in this whole murderous affair....a story he allegedly told Emile Sultan and which appeared in a 1902 Buffalo Courier article (Ripperologist 167 and of course in Bob's book) right after his deportation.

    C. Regardless of which man killed her, his hands would have had blood on them....the man who entered the Glenmore Hotel had blood on the back of his hands. Ali could have done what he probably always did....wipe his hands on his pants or somewhere else and had time to do so in the 20 hours prior to his arrest.....he was more aware of the surroundings than C.Kniclo was ( Miniter didn't recognize him and this may be one of the reasons she was able to give a good description of this new face.....Miniter was a permanent fixture at the Hotel). This may have been the first time C.Kniclo was ever in the East River Hotel. It was probably his last,,too.
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    • #17
      Yes, Lee has to shoulder his share of the blame for sitting on the story too. It was clearly still on his mind after a gap of 10 years. Damon certainly doesn’t sound like the shrinking violet-type. He’d have been used to dealing with itinerant laborers and the very type of man that would have been found drinking, or even sleeping, at a dump like The East River Hotel. Plus we would have to ask, if he’d told the police about the key would Frank really have been dumb enough to show up just for revenge? As a suspect in an horrendous murder? I’d have thought anyone would have fully expected him to have jumped on a boat back to Denmark or anywhere that wasn’t the USA?
      -Mike Banks-


      It is also possible that at the party Lee and one or two of the prosecution attorneys attended, their presence reminded him. ( I don't think it's etched in stone that he gave the key that much thought over the decade long period, but I'm certain Damon thought about it on many an occasion. He had the key. Lee didn't.) of the key.
      I agree that the farmhand would have made it for the hills instead of considering retaliation. Yet, again, if Damon had taken this key to the authorities early on, there'd be no way the farmhand would know the key had been turned in and Damon's involvement would cease at that point.
      One reason to be skeptical of the key story is the mere fact the farmhand left it at the Damon estate. Why not drop it in the Hudson River on the way back on the ferry ? Why not drop it anywhere but at the Damon homestead ?
      In essence, he's incriminating himself should anyone read the two or three NY papers which had the sketch of the key on page 1..

      For me though How, despite the fact that the 4 ‘excuses’ that Damon gave for not coming forward don’t hold water, it’s difficult to simply dismiss the key story. It’s a pity the servant couldn’t be traced (how hard did they try? Did they try?)
      -Mike Banks-


      I don't dismiss it Mike. I just realize that perhaps justice WAS done when Ali was sent to prison ( nail evidence) and perhaps NOT done ( the key story).
      For me, justice wasn't done in letting Damon off the hook. Had one of the local women held on to some bit of evidence and a middle class businessman, say from New Jersey, been put in prison for 10 years, losing 10 years of his life and his sanity at one point, I'm prepared to wager that that person would have had the book thrown at him or her and jailed.
      And then, they'd throw away the key.

      One problem Nina has encountered has been locating a list of employees at the Damon house in 1891. The 1890 US Census, as you know, was lost.
      There are some NY sources and one that lists the household for the Damon household. Yet, even with this list, there's no way of being certain if those on the list Nina found are the servants at the household at that time.
      Charles Brennan, the man who accompanied Damon to the Hotel according to the affidavit has been narrowed down to three ( maybe 4) fellows in the NY/NJ area. She's still investigating.








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      • #18
        I’d almost forgotten the Glenmore Hotel man. By the way How, I could help smiling at mention of a ‘family entrance’ to the East River Hotel btw. I can imagine a guy walking in wearing a Hawaiian shirt with the wife a kids in tow telling them that this was where they were staying for a week! Instant divorce id say.

        Although Dekle rightly points out that Mary Miniter lied about CB’s companion being entered immediately into the register by Thompson can we be sure that she was lying about him introducing himself as Kniclo? Perhaps he did, perhaps she simply misheard his name and then she repeated it later to Thompson when he was retrospectively filling in the register book? He might just have asked her “what was that guys name again?” Then we have her description tying so closely to Kelly’s at The Glenmore. Miniter lied, yes, but she was basically toeing the company line. She’d want to keep her job after all.

        Is it too easy just to dismiss Miniter? She spent a bit of time at close hand with Kniclo and what reason would she really have had for lying? And her description ties in with Kelly’s description (who as far as I can see also had no reason to lie) of Glenmore Man. Dekle’s point about how GM could have left without getting blood on the doors as, according to Kelly his hands were covered in blood, is a fair one but perhaps his hands were bloody but not completely covered in blood?

        Miniter took him to be German. Kelly mentioned a German accent…..

        Danish and German are two languages with similar origins. Despite having evolved separately for centuries, they still have a lot in common in terms of pronunciation, grammar, and vocabulary”

        Regards

        MichaelšŸ”Ž


        " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

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        • #19
          I’d almost forgotten the Glenmore Hotel man. By the way How, I could help smiling at mention of a ‘family entrance’ to the East River Hotel btw. I can imagine a guy walking in wearing a Hawaiian shirt with the wife a kids in tow telling them that this was where they were staying for a week! Instant divorce id say.
          -Mike Banks-


          It had a long history of being one of the worst pitstops in the Lower East Side. Historian Luc Sante stated in his 'Low Life' ( 1991) that there was a trapdoor on the floor where the bar was where men were jettisoned into the East River. Although it sounds about right for the ERH, I have doubts it was physically possible considering the distance from the River to the Hotel. But there's no doubt it was a very bad stop.

          Although Dekle rightly points out that Mary Miniter lied about CB’s companion being entered immediately into the register by Thompson can we be sure that she was lying about him introducing himself as Kniclo? Perhaps he did, perhaps she simply misheard his name and then she repeated it later to Thompson when he was retrospectively filling in the register book? He might just have asked her “what was that guys name again?” Then we have her description tying so closely to Kelly’s at The Glenmore. Miniter lied, yes, but she was basically toeing the company line. She’d want to keep her job after all.
          -Mike Banks-


          To begin with, Mike, Miniter was NOT an employee of the Hotel ( which I believe explains why she was put in The Tombs ( along with Fitzgerald who WAS an employee of the Hotel) and not Sam Shine, who seems to be one of Byrnes' cadre of local informants. Much of Byrnes' ability to maintain a semblance of order in the Lower East Side was his dependency on street informants. Miniter assisted Mary Corcoran, the housekeeper, by getting a few cents here and there for helping Corcoran. The night Miniter encountered Brown and C.Kniclo, she went off with a man to a room to 'sleep'.

          Miniter and Kelly gave mirror image descriptions of a man who it is hard to consider being two different people, IMHO.
          Miniter may have been guilty of embellishing or flip flopping on questions the police asked and for which Byrnes slandered her for in a May 1st newspaper article....but one thing that's certain is that she did NOT flip flop on the description when she testified at the trial. The original description she gave was also the description ( admittedly a little tentatively, probably due to her being 21, a prostitute, and being in front of all those men at the trial who knew her track record) she gave at the trial.

          Fitzgerald and Miniter both allude to Thompson ( whose own track record might have made him someone worthy of suspicion) writing in the name at the Trial and after the corpse was found ( late edit).



          Is it too easy just to dismiss Miniter? She spent a bit of time at close hand with Kniclo and what reason would she really have had for lying? And her description ties in with Kelly’s description (who as far as I can see also had no reason to lie) of Glenmore Man. Dekle’s point about how GM could have left without getting blood on the doors as, according to Kelly his hands were covered in blood, is a fair one but perhaps his hands were bloody but not completely covered in blood?
          -Mike Banks-


          That's why I mentioned blood being seen on the back of Glenmore Man's hand. It's extremely unlikely that either man, Ali or C.Kniclo, had blood on their palms for long. Kelly told a co-worker named Tiernan at the Glenmore that that man ( C.Kiclo-Glenmore Man) looked as if he had just killed someone....this being reported in the press. I have no doubt that C.Kniclo was Glenmore Man, but as with so many things, it is not impossible that it was beyond any doubt. However, what doubt that may exist, IMHO, is infinitesimal.
          I do not doubt or dismiss Miniter in regard to her description of C. Kniclo. Any hedging on her part as to who wrote in 'C.Kniclo' in the register may be due in great extent to who wrote it : Thompson. Thompson's exploits were common knowledge in the area....5 years prior he committed what I consider murder in 1886 and because of his connections, it was theorized that this is why he was released and not charged with manslaughter or murder. No, Miniter is an important figure in this case ( to me) because of her sticking to her guns even after 58 days in jail which was her reward for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

          Miniter took him to be German. Kelly mentioned a German accent…..

          “Danish and German are two languages with similar origins. Despite having evolved separately for centuries, they still have a lot in common in terms of pronunciation, grammar, and vocabulary”
          -Mike Banks-


          No doubt, Mike.
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          • #20
            One additional thought, Mike :
            Brown was strangled to death ( also smothered so tightly the fabric had to be cut off). Therefore, there was no arterial spray which translates into no flowing or streaming blood. Either man who had committed the murder could have wiped his palms on her clothing ( she had some on, she wasn't nude). We think of the back of our hands less than the palms because we don't grab with them.
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            • #21
              Such a pity that there are no crime scene photographs or even just a photograph of the hotel. I bet there’s one somewhere with the hotel in shot.

              I had assumed that Miniter actually worked there. Thanks for putting me right on that How.

              I can see how this case could get you hooked. I’ve decided to give the book a re-read over the next week or so and perhaps make a few notes then look at the other stuff that’s available. This case might distract me from solving the Wallace and the Ripper cases.

              I posted a link to carriebrown.net on the casebook thread as I see that you’ve now joined Lord Orsam as an asterisk.
              Last edited by Michael Banks; September 27, 2021, 06:10 PM.
              Regards

              MichaelšŸ”Ž


              " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

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              • #22
                Mike::

                I also thought she worked there, buddy. It was only from reading the trial transcript that I found out.

                This is my interpretation of the situation at hand......



                We have just about everything we need to put the puzzle together as to which one of the two suspects committed the murder....even the last piece except we just don't know whose face fits as the final piece. Yet.

                There are sketches of the room. Here's one.
                NY Evening World
                Page 1
                April 25,1891
                ****************


                ​​​​​​​
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                • #23
                  Mike:

                  Instead of starting a new thread, I thought I'd post these three attachments from the Coroner's Inquest ( Not the Trial Transcript).

                  This is Miniter being examined by Fred House ( Defense) on who wrote down the name in the register :

                  Notice the comment about C.Niclo being an 'imaginary name'



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                  • #24
                    A few exchanges later and D.A. Wellman cross examines Miniter about her misleading the police in regard to the man's eye color.
                    Nevertheless, the general description she gave matched the one given by Kelly at the Glenmore.
                    This might have been one of the things Byrnes referred to in his public slander of Miniter.
                    A lot of the Coroner's Inquest and actual Trial read like a Gilded Age version of the Abbott & Costello 'Who's On First ?" routine.


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                    • #25
                      What I would give if only the Trial was as clear ( in several places) as the Coroner's Inquest is to read !

                      Many thanks to Professor Dekle for sharing his copy with me.

                      This is Thompson, again at the Coroner's Inquest


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                      • #26
                        Thanks for posting these How. When you read things like this you often find yourself getting frustrated at the occasional inability to ask simple questions. When cross examining Miniter on the Niclo’s eye colour for example her answer “No sir I didn’t see them,” appears to be her saying that she never mentioned eye colour to the police and yet earlier she talks about taking his eyes to have been blue because of his light complexion. Straight questions would have made things clearer. “Did you see his eyes?” “Did you tell the police that his eyes were blue even though you hadn’t seen them?”

                        I’m guessing that the police asked her what colour his eyes were and she might have said that she didn’t see them but that they were probably blue because of his light complexion which the police mistook as a positive statement?
                        Regards

                        MichaelšŸ”Ž


                        " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

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                        • #27
                          This doesn’t point to anything but I just wonder why, when plucking a name out of thin air, did Thompson come up with C Kniclo? We all have a ‘memory bank’ of surnames that we’ve encountered over the years after all. Why not Mr Smith, or Mr Schulz? Why a name that comes across as a made up word?
                          Regards

                          MichaelšŸ”Ž


                          " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

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                          • #28
                            Thanks for posting these How. When you read things like this you often find yourself getting frustrated at the occasional inability to ask simple questions. When cross examining Miniter on the Niclo’s eye colour for example her answer “No sir I didn’t see them,” appears to be her saying that she never mentioned eye colour to the police and yet earlier she talks about taking his eyes to have been blue because of his light complexion. Straight questions would have made things clearer. “Did you see his eyes?” “Did you tell the police that his eyes were blue even though you hadn’t seen them?”
                            -Mike Banks-


                            I agree Mike. I have a feeling she assumed his eyes would be blue considering his features and possibly due to the number of men she had seen prior to this with those exact features.

                            I’m guessing that the police asked her what colour his eyes were and she might have said that she didn’t see them but that they were probably blue because of his light complexion which the police mistook as a positive statement?
                            -Mike Banks


                            Sounds possible, boss.

                            This doesn’t point to anything but I just wonder why, when plucking a name out of thin air, did Thompson come up with C Kniclo? We all have a ‘memory bank’ of surnames that we’ve encountered over the years after all. Why not Mr Smith, or Mr Schulz? Why a name that comes across as a made up word?
                            -Mike Banks-


                            I think its anyone's guess as to why that name was used.

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                            • #29
                              Mike....one of these days, I'll put together the testimonies of some of those who appeared at the Coroner Inquest and at the Trial....those in which witnesses testified, almost as if pre-planned, that they had only seen Ali three times. Thompson had a few run-ins with Ali before the murder on the 23rd-24th.
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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
                                Mike....one of these days, I'll put together the testimonies of some of those who appeared at the Coroner Inquest and at the Trial....those in which witnesses testified, almost as if pre-planned, that they had only seen Ali three times. Thompson had a few run-ins with Ali before the murder on the 23rd-24th.
                                That would be good How thanks. I’ve just started a re-read and I want to ask a question that’s probably answered further on in the book but I’ll ask anyway. How and why did Frenchy 2 come into the frame? Harrington’s description compared to Miniter’s makes it clear that Knicklo wasn’t Frenchy 2. Who initially suggested that the guy who shared the room with Carrie Brown might have been Frenchy 2?

                                Also, I notice that Dekle calls Mary Miniter the assistant housekeeper. Has he just assumed that her position was an official one as opposed to just helping out for the odd coin or two?
                                Regards

                                MichaelšŸ”Ž


                                " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

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