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Souvenir From A Kill For The '13th Juror'

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  • #31
    That would be good How thanks. I’ve just started a re-read and I want to ask a question that’s probably answered further on in the book but I’ll ask anyway. How and why did Frenchy 2 come into the frame? Harrington’s description compared to Miniter’s makes it clear that Knicklo wasn’t Frenchy 2. Who initially suggested that the guy who shared the room with Carrie Brown might have been Frenchy 2?

    Also, I notice that Dekle calls Mary Miniter the assistant housekeeper. Has he just assumed that her position was an official one as opposed to just helping out for the odd coin or two?
    - Mike Banks-


    I'm a little rusty on all the 'Frenchy 2' material , Mike....Arbie LaBruckman was considered as possibly being Frenchy 2 but he was discounted due to having an iron-clad alibi.
    One person who wasn't Frenchy 2 was Ali's friend named Jenalli. Jenalli lived in Brooklyn and had not seen Ali for 10 days prior to April 23/24....eliminating him as a possible Frenchy 2, unless
    someone wants to claim that Jenalli was telling a lie. Off the top of my head, I can't recall who it was that first suggested Frenchy 2 ( as in C.Kniclo being Frenchy 2) as the client in Room 31.

    In a sense, Miniter was like an assistant.....an assistant to the housekeeper. I'm sure that he knows from reading the transcripts that she was not a paid hotel employee....only paid occasionally
    by Mary Corcoran. Miniter was a prostitute.
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    • #32
      By the way, Mike...I appreciate your plug of CarrieBrown.Net on Casebook. So does Nina.
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      • #33
        To get an idea how close Ali was from the Hotel when he was arrested.....

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        • #34
          1915 Sanborn Fire Map of Cranford N.J : The star indicating the location of where George Damon lived ( died in 1906) at the time of the Brown Murder....and where the Danish Farmhand worked...assuming the story is true.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
            By the way, Mike...I appreciate your plug of CarrieBrown.Net on Casebook. So does Nina.
            No problem How
            Regards

            MichaelšŸ”Ž


            " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

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            • #36
              Why did the police appear to become convinced that it was Frenchy 2 that spent the night with Carrie Brown? In the ERR it says that the story of ‘on again off again’ lovers was pieced together by thd Press and they were talking about Frenchy and Shakespeare (although I assume that we can’t know which Frenchy?) When McLaughlin read his statement, after speaking to Frenchy, he said that….

              Frenchy said that he was called George Francis
              He admitted having a cousin also known as Frenchy but he wouldn’t give his name
              Both had bad reputations
              Both were in the dives that night, Frenchy with Lopez and Frenchy 2 with Brown
              Frenchy wouldn’t tell of Frenchy 2’s whereabouts.

              Byrnes then said that when they found Frenchy 2 they would have their man. He later backtracked on this but increased the search.

              So was the Frenchy 2 connection just a case of the Press putting 2 and 2 together to get 5? I can’t understand why the Police appeared so confident? Why did they think Frenchy 2 had been with Brown especially when they had Miniter’s description?

              Apologies for dragging you over stuff that’s basic level for you How.
              Regards

              MichaelšŸ”Ž


              " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

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              • #37
                Why did the police appear to become convinced that it was Frenchy 2 that spent the night with Carrie Brown? In the ERR it says that the story of ‘on again off again’ lovers was pieced together by thd Press and they were talking about Frenchy and Shakespeare (although I assume that we can’t know which Frenchy?) When McLaughlin read his statement, after speaking to Frenchy, he said that….

                Frenchy said that he was called George Francis
                He admitted having a cousin also known as Frenchy but he wouldn’t give his name
                Both had bad reputations
                Both were in the dives that night, Frenchy with Lopez and Frenchy 2 with Brown
                Frenchy wouldn’t tell of Frenchy 2’s whereabouts.

                Byrnes then said that when they found Frenchy 2 they would have their man. He later backtracked on this but increased the search.

                So was the Frenchy 2 connection just a case of the Press putting 2 and 2 together to get 5? I can’t understand why the Police appeared so confident? Why did they think Frenchy 2 had been with Brown especially when they had Miniter’s description?

                Apologies for dragging you over stuff that’s basic level for you How.
                -Mike Banks-

                ************************************************** ************************************************** ****************************************

                Mike, please don't apologize. I'm happy to respond to whatever you ask at any time.
                No elitism in the study of this Case, amigo...we all should be on the same team.

                Frenchy said that he was called George Francis
                He admitted having a cousin also known as Frenchy but he wouldn’t give his name
                Both had bad reputations
                Both were in the dives that night, Frenchy with Lopez and Frenchy 2 with Brown
                Frenchy wouldn’t tell of Frenchy 2’s whereabouts.


                Its good to keep in mind that anything Ali said ought to be taken with a pound of salt.
                Whoever Frenchy 2 was was certainly not that Jenalli over in Brooklyn...a married man who had not known of Ali's troubles until a little while after he'd been arrested and importantly, had not seen him for 10 days prior to the murder. He's out.
                Interesting that Ali was seen with the woman who pointed him out a day later to Officer Lang at 431 Water Street. She went on the witness stand and told of his violence towards her, the bitten arm, and how he was a bad egg, etc....and yet this whore was with him that night with the other couple, on his dime, drinking it up. Nice girl.
                One ( or more) report claimed Frenchy 2 was blonde ...as was the man C Kniclo, as described by Miniter...and Glenmore Man, probably C. Kniclo, as described by Kelly. The origin of this story is something I want to get into a little later on. It doesn't alter anything, IMHO, its just a loose end.


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                • #38
                  Mike:

                  This gives us the location of the room...the X on the right is the Catherine Slip side...the one on the left is the Water Street side.

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                  • #39
                    The photo on the right, which is from the 1920's or 1930's, shows the East River Hotel marked by a star and the arrow pointing south down Catherine Slip

                    Likewise the one at left from 1939-1941...arrow points south and the hotel's original location designated by the star.


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                    • #40
                      Contemporary ( and the best of 'em all...) sketch of the Hotel and a sketch of the room with victim. ( not necessarily found in that position). From the NYC newspaper, The New York Press




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                      • #41
                        Thanks for these How.

                        So the original building had the upper floors demolished in the photo on the right? And the one on the left was the building that replaced it? Or was the building in the photograph on the right the same building as the one in the left hand photo?
                        Regards

                        MichaelšŸ”Ž


                        " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

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                        • #42
                          Mike:

                          I believe the building behind the building with the star on the right was razed (this might have been the building Jacob Berliner ran...he was called to the Trial as a witness to provide the court information as to whether someone could have entered his building from the top of the East River Hotel through his scuttle) and a new building put in its place if we look at the different roofs ( one slanted from the 1920s and the other flat, from 1940).

                          The original Hotel was razed in the early years of the 20th century....The date is on the tip of my tongue...maybe 1904, but don't quote me.



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                          • #43
                            The stars indicate the location of the Hotel, Mike..., not the arrows.
                            The car in the left side photo is parked on Water Street

                            The arrows point down Catherine Slip in each photo.
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                            • #44
                              Thanks How.
                              Regards

                              MichaelšŸ”Ž


                              " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

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                              • #45
                                Mike:
                                I corrected the previous post...no big deal...because I forgot that Catherine slip turns left and up






                                This building stands where the hotel used to today.....

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