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Looking For Franks : A PDF of Research Conducted By Kattrup & M.A. Franzoi

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  • Looking For Franks : A PDF of Research Conducted By Kattrup & M.A. Franzoi

    Some time ago when I removed all the the existing threads in this section, I had set this aside so I could take each post and make a PDF of the posts only.
    I didn't do that and instead made a PDF of the three threads, all 87 posts which are in HTML and put that into a PDF. External links within the PDF are still
    functional.
    My apologies to the guys for taking so frigging long in putting this back up.
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  • #2
    Thanks, Howard.

    I remember settling on the last guy mentioned. Franz Lindstrom. I had him, or someone that fit his name and age, leaving the country soon after the murder and going back to Europe. Otherwise, I could not find him in the American records.


    Franz Lindström

    Migration • New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1891
    • 563 - 12 Mar 1891-27 Mar 1891
    Franz Lindström
    Male
    27
    1891
    New York City, New York, United States
    1864
    Denmark
    Denmark
    Spree
    Arrival NY: March 25

    http://www.norwayheritage.com/p_ship.asp?sh=spree

    Farmer
    Intending permanent
    sojourn

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    • #3
      Nice work, Mark....the farmhand was said to be in his thirties ( according to Damon, around 35)...but this is pretty close...
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      • #4
        I had him, or someone that fit his name and age, leaving the country soon after the murder and going back to Europe.
        The only other Frans Lindstrom of the right age I could find, arriving prior to 1891, came on June 5th of 1891 so, unless he went back right away and they made the crossing in 5 days which was the record (it usually takes 7 days), it's not him. This other foreigner named Frans Lindstrom, leaving around June 3rd, is not eliminated as being the Franz Lindstrom who arrived March 25th.

        Frans Lindstrom


        in the UK and Ireland, Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960
        Frans Lindstrom
        27
        abt 1864
        Departure: New York, New York, USA
        Arrival 10 Jun 1891
        Liverpool, England
        Teutonic
        96334
        Male Foreigner
        Laborer

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        • #5
          Thanks Mark.

          The Danish Farmhand, according to Damon, left 5 to 10 days after the murder....making the earliest departure April 29th and the latest May 4th.
          I personally think he left earlier, but it's probably better to assume Damon told the truth in this case.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
            The Danish Farmhand, according to Damon, left 5 to 10 days after the murder....making the earliest departure April 29th and the latest May 4th.
            I personally think he left earlier, but it's probably better to assume Damon told the truth in this case.
            I agree that Damon’s testimony is truthful. However, I doubt the relevance of Jansen’s testimony about the sailor who incriminated himself and went to Jamaica and China. This case was associated with the Ripper so there was bound to be some Ripper wannabes appearing.

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            • #7
              Here's a PDF with two short articles concerning Charles Jansen, in case anyone was unaware.

              I've also added an East River Echo ( Number 98 ) which has a piece about a German barber who saw what most likely was C. Kniclo leave Spekeman's Saloon with Brown
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              • #8
                Now, after reading that Jansen article, I’m sure his tip was of no value. We know he didn’t say the guy in Jamaica was a fellow Scandinavian and here it’s reported he said he’s French. So he has nothing to do with Damon and the “Danish farmhand”. It was probably a French Ripper wannabe implicating himself in the New York Ripper case.

                So no “Frank” suspect is eliminated because he’s still around in May or June.

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                • #9
                  Mark:

                  Glad you mentioned Jansen the other day.

                  This is the New York Sun from June 26th, 1891

                  Seems like Damon wasn't the only one who couldn't remember names....although in Jansen's case, his sailor didn't work for him,




                  I have every article from the Sun that covers the murder but had not, apparently, paid attention to this edition closely enough.

                  The Evening World article ( also attached) also mentions Jansen. However, it does not state that Friend had given Jansen a subpoena to appear whereas the Sun, from the following day, does.
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                  • #10
                    This is the Last Edition ( June 25th, 1891) of the Evening World.....it has a few extra details.

                    Personally, I'm not that confident that we can dismiss Jansen's story out of hand. I don't think there's any reason to doubt that
                    what he told Friend was what he had experienced or that it was simply a means of getting attention. That, however, doesn't mean that the individual who let on
                    that he had murdered Brown was telling the truth. IMHO...
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                    • #11
                      On second reading, I see that the Sun actually reported that Jansen said he heard it third hand from his messmates who heard it first and/or second hand in the New York Sailor's Quarters. The real witnesses were now in Jamaica. So you might be right then and it could be true, even if we believe the suspect is a "Danish farmhand".

                      The other witnesses may have been led to believe the self-incriminating suspect was French. Did he use the name Frank?

                      Either way, the idea that the killer left the country makes sense. That's one reason Franz Lindstrom's departure apparently 3 months after arrival looks suspicious. Couldn't a gap of a month after the Damon's suspect's departure from the farm to Franz Lindstrom's depature from NY be explained by a side-trip to Kingston, Jamaica?

                      Did Jansen's suspect really ship off to China as reported by some? If so, how would Jansen know the witnesses, who might know his name, were still in Jamaica and could still be contacted?

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                      • #12
                        According to that, the real witnesses from the Sailor's Quarters in NY, obviously departing on a different ship than the suspect when they left after the murder, had returned the same time as Jansen's ship but had left again before he went to court.

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                        • #13
                          Mark:

                          This is from the NY Evening World, Last Edition, June 25th.

                          This clipping quotes 'Yansen' ( This is the article I was looking for yesterday) stating that he was the one who had had a conversation with the seaman, as shown





                          Further evidence that dependency on the contemporary press for clarity in this case is often difficult.

                          In the two papers, the 25th and 26th of June....in the NY Sun, which you quoted from, he's Jansen and he's Norwegian
                          In the Evening World, he's Yansen and then Johnson and he's Swedish
                          In The Sun, he shares what he heard from others with Manny Friend....and in the Evening World, he recalls his conversation with the sailor to Friend.
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                          • #14
                            These two reports, the Sun on the 26th and the Evening World, on the 25th, are just a fraction of the articles in which poor typesetting and incomplete, shoddy reportage are found.
                            Instead of playing amateur crime scene sleuths....which they weren't....on the fifth floor of the hotel, they should have paid more attention to the people they interviewed.
                            For example, I am pretty sure, but stymied by not being able to prove it, that William Mannix's account of Ali being found sleeping on the floor of the hotel on April 23rd is a mistake.
                            Why would he do that if he just paid Fitzgerald for room 33 ? What, did he walk up four flights to the fifth floor and collapse in a heap in the hallway ?
                            These sort of goofs foul up the works if you're trying to develop a clearer picture of what happened on that date....and other dates throughout the end of April.

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                            • #15
                              I can see a third hand account turning into a first hand account in the papers but not a first hand turning into a third one. So I'll go with the Sun article.

                              Jansen heard it second and/or third hand. So this sailor may have been our Scandinavian "Frank".

                              "Frank" didn't have any problems with implicating himself, leaving behind enough incriminating evidence. Same person?

                              And could he be Franz Lindstrom? I don't know that the real killer would suddenly feel the heat so much in early June that he would ship out as a passenger to Liverpool, instead of just continuing to sail back and forth to Jamaica, etc.

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