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Looking For Franks : A PDF of Research Conducted By Kattrup & M.A. Franzoi

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  • “The Dane Frank went from Popeye to Roy Rodgers.”

    Don’t forget Bob the Builder who can do grading work in March!

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    • How could I forget !!!

      What do you make of Damon hiring men from 20 some miles away and not hiring locals ? Was everyone in idyllic Cranford employed ?
      Sort of like the way businesses in the States hire Mexicans to do landscaping.

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      • It’s a bit of a Chappaquiddick story if you ask me. But no one can say I didn’t give him the benefit of a doubt.

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        • Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
          How could I forget !!!

          What do you make of Damon hiring men from 20 some miles away and not hiring locals ? Was everyone in idyllic Cranford employed ?
          Sort of like the way businesses in the States hire Mexicans to do landscaping.
          Isn't it in Oregon where it's discouraged or even illegal for locals to do certain menial jobs?

          I'm not sure if a sailor jumping ship in New York for five years doesn't constitute a resident rather than a foreigner anymore. I'm not saying that Damon didn't hire some temps from NY to do some work for him at some point in the previous 10 years or even some from Castle Garden, probably pre-91 when it was in operation. He well could have.

          The question for me is how does hiring a group of men to work on your property and then one turns out to be the New York Ripper, if not Jack the Ripper, and you help capture him, reflect poorly on you "as a businessman" and bring shame on your family.

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          • Isn't it in Oregon where it's discouraged or even illegal for locals to do certain menial jobs?

            Not sure, Mark...they might have a law like there, I dunno.


            I'm not sure if a sailor jumping ship in New York for five years doesn't constitute a resident rather than a foreigner anymore. I'm not saying that Damon didn't hire some temps from NY to do some work for him at some point in the previous 10 years or even some from Castle Garden, probably pre-91 when it was in operation. He well could have.

            I would hazard a guess that Damon didn't speak any Scandinavian languages and that the men, including 'Frank' spoke English or at least one did and acted as interpreter. One or more may have been here in the States before....if this story is true.

            The question for me is how does hiring a group of men to work on your property and then one turns out to be the New York Ripper, if not Jack the Ripper, and you help capture him, reflect poorly on you "as a businessman" and bring shame on your family.

            Preaching to the choir, Mark....ever since I began to re-examine Damon's story, that 'excuse' you mentioned was a poor excuse by Damon.
            For the umpteenth time, and I'm sure you'd agree....all he had to do was go to a lawyer who would have facilitated a meeting with the NY authorities back in 1891 and he would have come out smelling a lot better than he does now and in 1901.
            For an example of what Damon worried about.....check out the PDF of the East River Echo Number 174....Big Noise From Cranford.
            Without knowing anything about the 'Euchre Row' mentioned in the PDF, you might get the impression the local paper was praising Damon, but actually it isn't...it's busting his balls.

            In the affidavit, Damon mentions hiring 'several men'.
            In my book, several doesn't mean two. A few would be three. Four would be several.
            If he hired 3 or 4 men, there's a risk....there was no way for him to know their background(s)....one may have been a thief or worse......where do they sleep at night ?

            They sure as shit don't stay in his house. He's got three teenaged sons ( Nina put together a chart that's on another thread in the Carrie Brown section) at home.
            I think it's strange that unless these kids were pansies, he'd have them developing manly traits, like hard work and picking up a frigging shovel.
            Nina believes the opposite...that even raking the leaves would be a stretch for kids from an upper middle class family like Damon's..

            The drawing below is something Nina located....a sketch of Damon's house after 1906 ( when he died of Bright's Disease) and his wife was still living there.
            It's gotta make his neighbors feel at ease knowing several strangers from another country are shacked up behind their house. Cranford's guide for 1910 or 1913 even mentions the notable
            absence of 'tramps' going through their Stepford Wives hamlet. Tramps ( men) were a problem for towns in the 1880's in the East. Cranford's population was 'accounted for'. No stray indigents or foreigners schlepping through Union County.

            Factor in Damon having valuables in his crib. While he's at work, Sven Snorri, or Ingmar decide to boost a couple of items and make a beeline for the Bowery. It's a risk, in my view. One Damon was willing to take, apparently.





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            • Here's the PDF I forgot to add...sorry.
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              • This was something I had thought of before but as it turned out...I forgot to mention it. See what you think.

                Back in the 19th century and well into the 20th, a uniform or a hat meant a lot more than it does to 21st century men. There was even a riot in NYC in 1922 known as the Straw Hat Riot over the wearing of straw hats after a certain date.

                Militant groups like the Klan, cops, sports teams, etc..all are identifiable by their uniform....some by their hats.

                Cutting to the chase, it strikes me a little odd that IF the Danish Farmhand existed and was a seaman ( tied knots sailors use that Damon recalled in his affidavit).....he's wearing a derby with a dent in it the East River Hotel.


                Where's his seaman's hat ? I find it unlikely that this guy had two hats in his grip when he got to NYC.

                IF he had been a seaman and wore a seaman's hat at some point....Damon wouldn't say, "I thought he was a seaman".... He'd know....and he'd know by the hat that designated a seaman.

                Any thoughts ?
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                • What hat did Totterman wear? It looks like a dented derby or wideawake to me.

                  They’re possible criminal element and may have jumped ship. Or maybe he did wear a sailor’s hat and Damon didn’t want to let on that he knows for a fact because it might lead to more questions about how and where he was hired.

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                  • Mark:

                    I might be wrong but I think Totterman was wearing what was known as a wideawake hat on the NY World front page Good point regarding Totterman.

                    On the other hand, if the Danish Farmhand was picked up as Damon declared down in the Battery ....would he have had time to purchase another ?

                    Damon freely admitted he picked this guy and several other men up at Castle Garden a month before the murder..
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                    • Damon wasn’t going to freely admit otherwise if that was the case and it was embarrassing. This was a businessman who picked up the equivalent of an Emil Totterman, Sailorman Jack the Ripper. That’s not going to happen down at the Immigrant Labor Board!

                      Didn’t saying Frank left 5-10 days later exonerate or absolve Damon because Ameer was arrested by then?

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                      • Didn’t saying Frank left 5-10 days later exonerate or absolve Damon because Ameer was arrested by then?

                        Even when he gave the elaborate story of going and verifying the key as having been the room key back in late April or early May of 1891
                        knowing it was material evidence and yet refraining from coming forward for a decade. ? My answer would be 'no', Mark.

                        He admitted having and retaining evidence which may have led to the release of Ali and the other witnesses from jail...all staying nearly 60 days in The Tombs....and long before the actual trial.
                        One of the five reported excuses he submitted was that he felt Ali deserved to be in prison, which he said was the ( partial) basis of him hanging on to the key.
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                        • Something I've wondered before: isn't it kind of a strange coincidence that both Frenchy and the Danish Farmhand were called Frank?

                          Howard, I cannot recall if it's been discussed before?

                          One might wonder if Damon, ten years after the fact, simply misremembered and subconsciously used the name associated with the murderer - George Frank.
                          Although Damon stated Frank was the guy's christian name, I believe, so it does not really pan out

                          Still, an odd coincidence?

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                          • Something I've wondered before: isn't it kind of a strange coincidence that both Frenchy and the Danish Farmhand were called Frank?

                            Howard, I cannot recall if it's been discussed before?

                            One might wonder if Damon, ten years after the fact, simply misremembered and subconsciously used the name associated with the murderer - George Frank.
                            Although Damon stated Frank was the guy's Christian name, I believe, so it does not really pan out

                            Still, an odd coincidence?


                            -Kattrup-

                            Boss, it hasn't been discussed before. It is a coincidence although Frank was the 6th most common Christian name in the 1880's and 7th most common in the 1890's in America....although George Frank's ethnicity hasn't been determined
                            in our research over here.

                            Your question encouraged me to do some thinking on another aspect of the name issue. I'm glad you brought this up, Kattrup...so, thanks !

                            I have attached a clipping ( and the PDF) of the May 12th, 1891 NY Evening World, which presents the real George Frank, the man whose name Ali appears to have used....in addition to Frank Sherlicka, George Francois, and a few others which may have also been a result of the reporters writing anything down to complete a story.

                            This article is further refutation towards a claim another researcher had made stating he had found Frenchy 2.

                            Jenalli, known also by his English name, John Allen, was a Turk and was most certainly not Frenchy 2. The man I found in a 1893 article lived in the rough and tumble neighborhood, Double Alley, was John Smith, an Algerian. I've enclosed a PDF of the East River Echo Number 102 with an article suggesting that John Smith was Frenchy 2.
                            There are two other articles concerning Jenalli in which he told a reporter the last time he had seen Ali....well before the real Frenchy 2 was in the vicinity of the
                            the hotel. His wife, of Irish extraction, supported that statement in another article.


                            From what Jenalli says in this excerpt, it appears he wouldn't have been caught dead near the whorehouse known as
                            the East River Hotel....especially with a wife at home across the Brooklyn Bridge.



                            ************************************************** **************

                            Another thing your question brings up is why is the official trial transcript titled, People of The State of New York vs. George Frank also known as Amir ben Ali, when the authorities knew his real name was Amir Ben Ali ?

                            In America, there has been a tendency to Anglicize names which are of non-English origin.
                            I had wondered why the State of New York used an alias as opposed to the true name in the past......The appendage to the charge does include ' also known as Amir ben Ali' which IS his real name !


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