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Eddowes at the Casual Ward

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  • Rob Clack
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif

    Clarity doesn't come naturally to me, Rob x
    Or reading to me

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Rob Clack

    Sorry, my mistake, I thought you were meant that you thought Homerton Workhouse was not a City of London Workhouse and wondered why he went there.
    Clarity doesn't come naturally to me, Rob x

    Leave a comment:


  • Rob Clack
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif

    Hi Rob, that's right, a John (and Kate) Kelly were in a City of London workhouse but (if they are 'our' John and Kate Kelly) both of them were living in Spitalfields at that time, so I am wondering how (and if that's what it means) John Kelly had settlement in the City of London in 1886? Settlement was gained through residence, apprenticeship or birth parish.
    Sorry, my mistake, I thought you were meant that you thought Homerton Workhouse was not a City of London Workhouse and wondered why he went there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Rob Clack

    Hi Debs,

    I believe Homerton Workhouse was officially a City of London Union Workhouse.

    Rob
    Hi Rob, that's right, a John (and Kate) Kelly were in a City of London workhouse but (if they are 'our' John and Kate Kelly) both of them were living in Spitalfields at that time, so I am wondering how (and if that's what it means) John Kelly had settlement in the City of London in 1886? Settlement was gained through residence, apprenticeship or birth parish.

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Simon Wood
    Hi Debra,

    Bear with me here.

    I am not convinced that the woman released from Bishopsgate police station at 1.00 am was Catherine Eddowes, who, as John Kelly told the inquest, had lived with him for seven years at 55 Flower & Dean Street. What makes me suspicious is that she gave her name as Mary Ann Kelly, a woman who had lived at 55 Flower & Dean Street, dying there in May 1888.

    As far as we know, this coincidence was not followed up by the police. Neither did they follow up the addresses on the pawn tickets. Had they done so, they would have discovered that No. 6 Dorset Street [opposite the lodging house at No. 35] backed directly onto the premises at No. 32 Whites Row, which has to be one of the most gargantuan coincidences of all time.

    More later,

    Simon​
    Thanks Simon,
    I'll certainly bear with until the more comes.
    But speaking of coincidences, In 1888 or thereabouts, someone wrote to police suggesting that Mary Ann Kelly's address of 6 Dorset Street may relate to the Dublin address, rather than the Spitalfields one and I happened to look the address up and found a family named Kelly living there...that's another useless bit of information that I've briefly committed to memory but I'm not sure I can ever find the original post again!
    I look forward to the follow up.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rob Clack
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif

    Hi Simon
    I can't really conclude that myself. I tend to agree more with Keith in that these records represent a small amount of time that Kate and John used various vagrant and casual wards rather than sleeping together in the lodging house for whatever reason. They could still have lived together for seven years at 55 Flower and Dean Street and engaged in field work periodically, or didn't have the money for lodgings occassionally?
    Perhaps this has nothing to do with your thinking, but I am still of the opinion that old research suggesting John Kelly was with a woman named Mary Ann Kelly (who died in early 1888) at 55 Flower and Dean Street before he was with Eddowes is incorrect. I still think the Mary Ann Kelly who died at 55 Flower and Dean Street in 1888 was most likley the chair caner, widow of William Kelly/Kelley discussed in this old thread, although my explanation of the research at the time seemed to have confused a few people :



    From the list I compiled a while back posted here, John Kelly apparently being recorded as having settlement in the City of London still intrigues me, that is if the couple in the records are Kate Eddowes and John Kelly [and if C.L.U.S. means City of London Union Settlement]

    Homerton workhouse creed register 1885 - 1896 Mar 18 86 Kate Kelly b 1844, fieldworker, R C, casual ward, husband John C.L.U.S. admitted 18/3/86 dis 25/3/86

    If John and Kate lived at 55 Flower and Dean Street for seven years, how did John get settlement in the City in 1886? Anyone have any ideas on this identification or issue?
    Hi Debs,

    I believe Homerton Workhouse was officially a City of London Union Workhouse.

    Rob

    Leave a comment:


  • Simon Wood
    replied
    Hi Debra,

    Bear with me here.

    I am not convinced that the woman released from Bishopsgate police station at 1.00 am was Catherine Eddowes, who, as John Kelly told the inquest, had lived with him for seven years at 55 Flower & Dean Street. What makes me suspicious is that she gave her name as Mary Ann Kelly, a woman who had lived at 55 Flower & Dean Street, dying there in May 1888.

    As far as we know, this coincidence was not followed up by the police. Neither did they follow up the addresses on the pawn tickets. Had they done so, they would have discovered that No. 6 Dorset Street [opposite the lodging house at No. 35] backed directly onto the premises at No. 32 Whites Row, which has to be one of the most gargantuan coincidences of all time.

    More later,

    Simon​

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Simon Wood
    This fabulous piece of research by Debra Arif kinda sorta puts the kibosh on the story of John Kelly, who claimed to have lived with Catherine Eddowes at 55 Flower and Dean Street for the past seven years.

    Simon
    Hi Simon
    I can't really conclude that myself. I tend to agree more with Keith in that these records represent a small amount of time that Kate and John used various vagrant and casual wards rather than sleeping together in the lodging house for whatever reason. They could still have lived together for seven years at 55 Flower and Dean Street and engaged in field work periodically, or didn't have the money for lodgings occassionally?
    Perhaps this has nothing to do with your thinking, but I am still of the opinion that old research suggesting John Kelly was with a woman named Mary Ann Kelly (who died in early 1888) at 55 Flower and Dean Street before he was with Eddowes is incorrect. I still think the Mary Ann Kelly who died at 55 Flower and Dean Street in 1888 was most likley the chair caner, widow of William Kelly/Kelley discussed in this old thread, although my explanation of the research at the time seemed to have confused a few people :



    From the list I compiled a while back posted here, John Kelly apparently being recorded as having settlement in the City of London still intrigues me, that is if the couple in the records are Kate Eddowes and John Kelly [and if C.L.U.S. means City of London Union Settlement]

    Homerton workhouse creed register 1885 - 1896 Mar 18 86 Kate Kelly b 1844, fieldworker, R C, casual ward, husband John C.L.U.S. admitted 18/3/86 dis 25/3/86

    If John and Kate lived at 55 Flower and Dean Street for seven years, how did John get settlement in the City in 1886? Anyone have any ideas on this identification or issue?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jose Oranto
    replied
    Thank you very much Simon, Jerry and Kattrup for taking the trouble.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kattrup
    replied
    Originally posted by Jose Oranto


    The Reverend T. (or 'J.') Dunscombe, chaplain of The City of London Cemetery (he performed, at least, Emma E. Smith and Kate Eddowes’ funerals). What could that 'T' or 'J' stand for?

    (Apologies for diverting thread)
    Thomas Nicholas Dunscombe is the vicar in Amble.

    I believe he was Irish, graduated early 1880s, so it could bd him.

    I haven’t found JN yet, but probably just a newspaper typo?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jerry Dunlop
    replied
    Originally posted by Jose Oranto


    Thanks Sir

    I had already chosen 'George' in the absence of not being able to decipher "S. W.” Now there is no doubt.

    I have one more for you Simon… I thought it should be easy, but I haven't been able so far… The Reverend T. (or 'J.') Dunscombe, chaplain of The City of London Cemetery (he performed, at least, Emma E. Smith and Kate Eddowes’ funerals). What could that 'T' or 'J' stand for?

    (Apologies for diverting thread)
    Jose.

    The few mentions I find are in the 1914-1917 era in Amble, Northumberland. He is the vicar of Amble and goes by the names, Reverend T.N. Dunscombe or J.N. Dunscombe.

    Leave a comment:


  • Simon Wood
    replied
    Ola Jose,

    Sorry, can't help you with Dunscombe.

    Simon

    Leave a comment:


  • Jose Oranto
    replied
    Originally posted by Simon Wood
    Ola Jose,

    It's a newspaper typo.

    The Mile End superintendent was George William Franklin.

    His wife was Mary Ellen Peck.

    They married in Croydon, 1883.

    Thanks Sir

    I had already chosen 'George' in the absence of not being able to decipher "S. W.” Now there is no doubt.

    I have one more for you Simon… I thought it should be easy, but I haven't been able so far… The Reverend T. (or 'J.') Dunscombe, chaplain of The City of London Cemetery (he performed, at least, Emma E. Smith and Kate Eddowes’ funerals). What could that 'T' or 'J' stand for?

    (Apologies for diverting thread)

    Leave a comment:


  • Simon Wood
    replied
    Ola Jose,

    It's a newspaper typo.

    The Mile End superintendent was George William Franklin.

    His wife was Mary Ellen Peck.

    They married in Croydon, 1883.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	PECK 1883.jpg
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ID:	606327
    Simon
    Attached Files

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  • Simon Wood
    replied
    Hi Keith,

    Frederick Wilkinson attested that he had known the deceased and Kelly during the last seven years.

    Wilkinson never said they had lived together at 55 Flower and Dean Street during this time. Nor did he say that during this time he had been Lodging House Deputy at this address.

    On marrying in 1886 and 1894, and in 1896, he gave his occupation as "butcher."

    Simon​

    Leave a comment:

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