Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Eddowes at the Casual Ward

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    So when I hear Kate saying, ‘I’m a hawker. I spent last night in Romford* (a market town a day’s tramp away) and I’m on my way to Croydon (a market town a day’s tramp away)’, I wonder whether these might be porkies designed to secure a single night’s unencumbered lodging.

    In Kate’s favour, the 24th, the night she claimed to have spent in Romford, was a Wednesday - market day.
    I also think it is highly possible that Catherine Eddowes spent the odd night in the casual ward on the pretence that she was tramping looking for work or hawking but it's impossible to know where and which occasion because we do have an example of Eddowes doing one form of seasonal fieldwork when she went hopping in the 1888 season.

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Dusty Miller View Post
    I thought "fieldwork" might mean hop-picking, but the times of year don't coincide.

    In fact, the times don't seem to match any crops. I wonder what she did "in the fields"?

    Debra, you are a living gold mine!
    Thanks, Dusty.
    Field work would cover hopping and all other seasonal crop preparation and harvesting I think. I wondered about things like flowers and lavender which would have to be both planted and picked.
    Pea picking season was carried on in June in Essex, I know this from the cut throat murder of Johanna Driscoll in Essex in 1893, she was living in Poplar but arrived in Essex for the pea picking season.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    So when I hear Kate saying, ‘I’m a hawker. I spent last night in Romford* (a market town a day’s tramp away) and I’m on my way to Croydon (a market town a day’s tramp away)’, I wonder whether these might be porkies designed to secure a single night’s unencumbered lodging.

    In Kate’s favour, the 24th, the night she claimed to have spent in Romford, was a Wednesday - market day.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    I have to add that I am not 100 % certain that is Kate Eddowes as Kate Kelly although the age, husband John use of the same workhouse and casual wards does fit and I didn't find anyone else who matched the couple and appeared or disappeared at the times we would expect, as this couple do.

    Eddowes was doing fieldwork in the form of hop picking in the summer of 1888 so it is reasonable to consider she was involved in other seasonal fieldwork. I suppose a bit of both could apply-genuine use whilst tramping for work and also using it when there was no money for a night's lodgings. The regular casual ward users would probably need to spread out their stays geographically between the different workhouse so as to avoid being taken in to the main workhouse.
    Thanks, Debs.

    I’m afraid I’m looking at this through an Enright prism.

    As you know, Biddy and her family spent one night in the Abergavenny Whs in 1886, claiming to have spent the previous night in Brecon (different union, a day’s tramp away) and to be on their way to Hereford (different union, a day’s tramp away). However the last address we have for them is in Llangattock, which was within the Abergavenny union and there’s no evidence that Patrick was a casual farm worker or that he and his family had ever lived any kind of a vagrant life. He had worked in the South Wales iron industry and had settled accommodation for decades. (Or so it seems to me at present).

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Dusty Miller View Post
    I thought "fieldwork" might mean hop-picking, but the times of year don't coincide.

    In fact, the times don't seem to match any crops. I wonder what she did "in the fields"?

    Debra, you are a living gold mine!
    Although harvest time is the busiest in the farming year, there were presumably other times when casual workers helped out with sowing etc?

    That said, ‘field work’ seems a convenient catch-all if you’re trying to pretend you spent last night in a union 15/20 miles outside of London and you’re intending to spend tonight in another union a similar distance in the opposite direction.

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

    Re Eddowes: it’s interesting that it seems she started calling herself Kelly from early 1884, and that her occupation was often stated to be field/garden work. I wonder if she really ever went to Romford, Ilford, Brentwood, Croydon etc. Or whether she made those up so as to present herself as a genuine vagrant deserving of a night’s B&B?
    I have to add that I am not 100 % certain that is Kate Eddowes as Kate Kelly although the age, husband John use of the same workhouse and casual wards does fit and I didn't find anyone else who matched the couple and appeared or disappeared at the times we would expect, as this couple do.

    Eddowes was doing fieldwork in the form of hop picking in the summer of 1888 so it is reasonable to consider she was involved in other seasonal fieldwork. I suppose a bit of both could apply-genuine use whilst tramping for work and also using it when there was no money for a night's lodgings. The regular casual ward users would probably need to spread out their stays geographically between the different workhouse so as to avoid being taken in to the main workhouse.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dusty Miller
    replied
    I thought "fieldwork" might mean hop-picking, but the times of year don't coincide.

    In fact, the times don't seem to match any crops. I wonder what she did "in the fields"?

    Debra, you are a living gold mine!

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    It will remain 'under the line' info, Gary. There definitely won't be enough room in the new A to Z to reproduce lists like these for the women.
    This is what Ripperology is all about for me, finding, posting and discussing information like this that leads us to new information and insight with like minded people like yourself. Anna, Robert, Jerry, Roy and many others.
    Keeping company with Foggy and Frank Cowdry I suppose.

    Same here re Ripperology. Long may it continue

    Re Eddowes: it’s interesting that it seems she started calling herself Kelly from early 1884, and that her occupation was often stated to be field/garden work. I wonder if she really ever went to Romford, Ilford, Brentwood, Croydon etc. Or whether she made those up so as to present herself as a genuine vagrant deserving of a night’s B&B?

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    This is a really fascinating mine of information. I’m hoping it will be laid out in the new A-Z so that it doesn’t get lost or diluted.

    I notice that not once does Kate give her occupation as ‘balladeer’. (Sorry!)
    It will remain 'under the line' info, Gary. There definitely won't be enough room in the new A to Z to reproduce lists like these for the women.
    This is what Ripperology is all about for me, finding, posting and discussing information like this that leads us to new information and insight with like minded people like yourself. Anna, Robert, Jerry, Roy and many others.

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Thanks for the comments everyone.
    This raw data is in fact a couple of years old and is the data I used to determine that Kate Eddowes had a fourth child who she named Frederick, a child never written or researched about before.
    It also formed part of the research I did in to the use of the Newington casual ward by the Whitechapel victims and their friends and family. I have mentioned bfore a couple of times that I believe Mary Ann Nichols used the Newington casual ward around the time her marriage was breaking up. Martha Tabram used this casual ward in the past, Mary Ann Monk was a regular, and an interesting young woman named Mary Kelly was using it in 1888.

    It's a pity that the Newington casual ward registers areone of the only registers of this type concerning the use of one night causual workhouse stays that has survived for this era.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lynn Cates
    replied
    good

    Hello Debs.


    Good work.


    Cheers.
    LC

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Thank you, Debra!

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    A lot of the ‘stayed last night/going to’ stuff is pretty improbable. Imagining Kate thinking up those lies in order to get a bed for the night gives me a real sense of the woman and her predicament.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    This is a really fascinating mine of information. I’m hoping it will be laid out in the new A-Z so that it doesn’t get lost or diluted.

    I notice that not once does Kate give her occupation as ‘balladeer’. (Sorry!)

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Something I’m wondering about re. the Enright family is how reliable the info about where casuals had spent the previous night and where they were headed might have been. Presumably their word was taken at face value.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X