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  • Why would Kate solicit?

    Hey everyone. I was recently thinking about the circumstances of the murder of Catherine Eddowes and something occured to me...why would Kate want to solicit a possible john after just being released after a while being in jail? I mean, think about it: The last time Kate was outside, she was falling-down drunk and acting real inappropriate (making sounds like a fire engine and so forth). When the PC came across her, she in fact was practically passed out on the pavement and he needed another policeman to help carry her to jail. So, it stands to reason that when she sobered up a few hours later, she probably wasn't feeling that good and was pretty hungover. So, I sort of find it a little difficult to think that she would be in any shape to solicit a potential client just for a few shillings. In fact, she told the night watchman as she was leaving "I shall get a damn fine hiding when I get home....thereby implying her next destination was back home.

    However now the question is, how did she end up in Mitre Square, which is the opposite direction of where her home is and if it is possible she was not soliciting, what was she doing there? And how did she come across JTR?

  • #2
    I've said before that it's impossible that Kate could have been completely sober by the time she was released from jail. Anybody who has ever drunk alcohol to the point of how Kate was acting would know that you don't get over that and feel fine within a few hours. She must still have been atleast a bit tipsy. Therefore, she might not have been fully in control of herself still (remember Lawende said she had her hand on the man she was talking to, maybe she was more leaning on him than anything?).

    Also, perhaps more likely, she'd hocked James Kelly's boots and then gone and blown what money she did have on getting drunk, hence why she was going to face a "hiding" when she got back home.....makes sense that she would want to try and make as much of it back as possible by whatever means she could - in this instance, in the middle of the night, that would be soliciting - in order to lessen the damage when she did get back to Kelly.

    Cheers,
    Adam.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi folks,

      One thing we do know regarding her condition at the time of her release, she was at that time...in the opinion of the night desk man....capable of taking care of herself. In the city jail that's what determined your discharge time that Fall,...under the Metro jurisdiction, she would have been in for the night regardless.

      Catharine was able to get falling down drunk in the early evening, before Unfortunates like her would be soliciting and without any known source of money at that time, so one wonders what the date on the pawn ticket means to that question....its dated for Friday, not Saturday.....and whether the afternoon benefactor might also have been available later that same evening.

      It would seem though that no matter why she did turn left out that Bishopsgate door, she had no intentions of heading "home" to John for that hiding she stated she was in for. So she either lied about what she was going to do when leaving...or "home and the hiding" didnt refer to going "home" to where we would assume John Kelly was...or John was in the direction she headed.

      Best regards

      Comment


      • #4
        Is it possible that she had a previous appointment with JTR that she intended to keep, which may explain why she turned left after exitin Bishopsgate?

        Is it also possible that she may have been unfamilar with that particular area and had gotten lost and inadvertantly ened up in Mitre Square...and in the hands of the Ripper?

        Comment


        • #5
          Hey JT,

          Well if Kate had an appointment with Jack, we have to assume that she'd made it much earlier that day, before she wrote herself off and ended up in the cell. So if that was the case, why would she have drunk herself into the stupor in the first place? Would she have even been able to remember making the appointment, especially if it was made when she was already well on the way to being drunk? Why 1.30 AM at Mitre Square, of all times and places? There's shades of some of the things that have been suggested about the Stride murder here, and it wasn't the case for her, and it's probably quite similar for Kate as well.

          Second option is a bit more likely but difficult to accept given that she'd walked the streets of the East End for quite some time......the only thing is the possibility she might have slightly lost her bearings due to still being partially drunk? It was dark and wet after all, and she was stressed about being in trouble with John Kelly.

          Cheers,
          Adam.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Adam Went View Post
            Hey JT,

            Well if Kate had an appointment with Jack, we have to assume that she'd made it much earlier that day, before she wrote herself off and ended up in the cell. So if that was the case, why would she have drunk herself into the stupor in the first place? Would she have even been able to remember making the appointment, especially if it was made when she was already well on the way to being drunk? Why 1.30 AM at Mitre Square, of all times and places? There's shades of some of the things that have been suggested about the Stride murder here, and it wasn't the case for her, and it's probably quite similar for Kate as well.

            Second option is a bit more likely but difficult to accept given that she'd walked the streets of the East End for quite some time......the only thing is the possibility she might have slightly lost her bearings due to still being partially drunk? It was dark and wet after all, and she was stressed about being in trouble with John Kelly.

            Cheers,
            Adam.
            Hi Adam,

            Important that we remember here that the police themselves speculated about a planned liaison in Kates case, and her "appointment" might simply be to meet someone she didnt even have to know prior to the meeting,... she could know him by the color of scarf he would be wearing and a general location. Catharine isnt seen by anyone until 1:35am, if at all, after leaving the police station at 1am, so we do have some 20 minutes or more she might have been in that area looking for someone...the walk to Mitre was less than 10 minutes I understand.

            We have expenditures when we believe she had no money, we have a pawn ticket date that is dated Friday, not Saturday,.. we have Kate heading in a direction opposite to the one her partner John Kelly would be in, and opposite to the one she suggested to Hutt she would be headed,.. and we have Kate using aliases twice in her last 24 hours...curiously,... anagrams of almost the entire next Canonical Victims full known name and address save one character.....Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street, and Mary Kelly of Fashion Street.

            We have a new organ as a target, new wounds in the form of facial injuries and colon severing, new features such as his taking a piece of clothing from the victim using his knife, and we have some 7 policemen, active and retired, the only people awake and within a shout of the location she dies in at the time....the 3 detectives searching nearby alleys plus Watkins, Harvey, Morris, and Pearce.

            Plenty of new aspects to consider when this murder was committed.....including the later discarded apron section in the entrance to Model Homes populated almost exclusively by Immigrant Jews....and its chalk neighbor.

            Although many would like to suggest this murder is just like Pollys and Annies, (something which could be supported by some of the known evidence including the "silent" attack before knife usage, the deep throat cuts, the abdominal mutilations), there are differences in both the evidence and the circumstances that make that conclusion at best, premature.

            I think JtR that she went to find someone, and that she did. What is the story behind that, I dont know. But she obviously didnt head straight "home" for any hiding.

            Cheers

            Comment


            • #7
              Good points Mike,

              There are differences in every murder and circumstances play a vital part, even in murders commited by known serial killers. Times, locations, circumstances and evidence are always different to some degree... but there are also similarities that link the murders as well. Some are willing to accept the obvious differences between Nichols' murder and Chapman's based on a theory, but not the rest.

              Kate probably headed in a direction other than home to earn some money so she could avoid the 'hiding' and Mitre Square was known to be a place where prostitutes took customers... a good scenario for a murderer such as this to take advantage of. I know that's simplistic, but logical to me.
              Best Wishes,
              Cris Malone
              ______________________________________________
              "Objectivity comes from how the evidence is treated, not the nature of the evidence itself. Historians can be just as objective as any scientist."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cris Malone View Post

                Kate probably headed in a direction other than home to earn some money so she could avoid the 'hiding' and Mitre Square was known to be a place where prostitutes took customers... a good scenario for a murderer such as this to take advantage of. I know that's simplistic, but logical to me.
                Hi Chris,

                Im less inclined to fill in the missing information gaps with soliciting assumptions myself, ...its clear at least that we dont know what caused her left turn.

                Cheers mate.

                Comment


                • #9
                  If she ended up in a dark corner of Mitre Square I think we do.
                  Just what other reason would she be there?
                  Best Wishes,
                  Cris Malone
                  ______________________________________________
                  "Objectivity comes from how the evidence is treated, not the nature of the evidence itself. Historians can be just as objective as any scientist."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Mike:

                    Fair enough, but none of that answers the question of why, if she had previously made this appointment, she would then go and write herself off on drink? If Jack was a friend (remembering she had claimed that she knew who she was, as flimsy as that piece of information is) or a client who she had made an appointment with - why Mitre Square, of all places? Why 1.30 AM? And, as I said, why get drunk and risk missing the appointment?

                    There is no possible way that she was fully sober when she left that police station. No way. So it's more likely that she wandered around, wanting to avoid going back to John Kelly still in a reasonably bad way and with no money, looking to resort to prostitution to make some of the money back. Maybe she deliberately went in the opposite direction to Kelly because she was worried he would be out looking for her?

                    Cheers,
                    Adam.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      A minor point is that in "My Secret Life" the gratings or grids over the cellars were utilised as public conveniences -Eddowes was found next to one of these

                      Maybe Eddowes was urinating prior to a blitz type attack

                      I recently saw one report that said her head was on the grating and another that described blood dripping down from the bars

                      Obviously this doesn't fit in with the in-situ sketch

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Good thinking, Nemo. The only thing though is that these grates and what not seem to have been quite common in the area.....there was one in the passageway to Dutfield's Yard where Liz Stride was killed as well. I guess they had to be reasonably common to try and handle the sewage and overflow problems from the crowded population.

                        Cheers,
                        Adam.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Adam

                          I may be wrong but I don't think these were part of the sewage system - they were just open gratings

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nemo View Post
                            Hi Adam

                            I may be wrong but I don't think these were part of the sewage system - they were just open gratings
                            Hi Nemo,

                            I believe that the grate in Mitre may have been to access shafts for the rail and Underground lines, and although I think your idea is interesting its worth noting that if Lawende did see Kate and her killer the timing is very fine. He sees them outside the Square at approx 1:35...and Watkins finds her inside it at around 1:44....so they have to get to the location, he has to subdue her to get her lying down, and he still has to accomplish all that he does including a frontal removal of a kidney in about 9 minutes.

                            Even full-time prostitutes need not be soliciting when seen outdoors at night, why you Adam and Chris would imagine that women for who prostitution was a last resort would do that every night is a bit of a mystery to me. I can only assume that you believe all women in their place would solicit in favor of decent work because they could make more money.....yet there is no thought to how they might feel having to do that kind of work. You assume they were without any dignity, morals, scruples, or character...and you forget how reviled prostitutes were in the LVP. Many of these women resorted to soliciting because of their alcoholism, not a desire for "easy work" or better pay than a sweat shop. The facts are that today women can make 10 times what they could make in a factory in a week by servicing clients...yet we have far more women working in factories than on the street...ergo, struggling women do in fact choose to make less money daily...based on what they can live with personally.

                            Why Kate went to Mitre likely has something to do with her death....and perhaps examining some of the evidence that is not addressed by an assumption of soliciting would be in the best interests of the investigation into that crime. No one sees Kate walking someone into a dark lane or corner, as no-one saw Liz do the same.

                            Kate was in fact a homeless woman you do realize? So was Liz, so was Polly, and so was Annie. They stayed regularly at some spots, but as transients.

                            So to find a homeless woman actually being homeless shouldnt be so surprising, nor the basis for assumptions about what they must then do. Maybe Kate had a friend she was to meet to give her a place to stay that night...maybe the friend(s) that bought her drinks that afternoon.

                            Best regards

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mike Richards View Post
                              Even full-time prostitutes need not be soliciting when seen outdoors at night, why you Adam and Chris would imagine that women for who prostitution was a last resort would do that every night is a bit of a mystery to me. I can only assume that you believe all women in their place would solicit in favor of decent work because they could make more money.....
                              If they were found dead in a dark corner that was known to be a place for prostitutes to take clients, and they were known ( as her sister indicated) to solicit from time to time... it is simply logical to draw that conclusion. I don't think they necessarily did this every night. Kate had just got back from hop picking ( wasn't likely soliciting there ) and she and Kelly were having a run of bad luck. She was released from jail in the middle of the night with no place to go. That is a familiar theme here. She had no decent work to do at that hour - no choice if she was going to find a bed or face Kelly... its that simple.

                              The facts are that today women can make 10 times what they could make in a factory in a week by servicing clients...yet we have far more women working in factories than on the street...ergo, struggling women do in fact choose to make less money daily...based on what they can live with personally.
                              Yes, and most women didn't turn to prostitution back then either. But these women were placed or had placed themselves into a desperate situation and alcohol played a major role in each of their lives... as drugs do for street hookers today.

                              Why Kate went to Mitre likely has something to do with her death....and perhaps examining some of the evidence that is not addressed by an assumption of soliciting would be in the best interests of the investigation into that crime. No one sees Kate walking someone into a dark lane or corner, as no-one saw Liz do the same.
                              Why Kate went to Mitre Square has everything to do with her death. What evidence is there that has not been addressed without making assuptions that aren't even as plausable as her soliciting? No one sees Polly or Annie take someone into a dark place either. Mary Kelly is seen taking someone into her room and there are still people who want to suggest that she was just having a good time with someone.

                              Kate was in fact a homeless woman you do realize? So was Liz, so was Polly, and so was Annie. They stayed regularly at some spots, but as transients.
                              So to find a homeless woman actually being homeless shouldnt be so surprising, nor the basis for assumptions about what they must then do. Maybe Kate had a friend she was to meet to give her a place to stay that night...maybe the friend(s) that bought her drinks that afternoon.
                              I've really enjoyed reading your post on the various threads of late, Mike, because even when I questioned them I thought they were logical... but this last statement has me bewildered. Meet someone in a dark place so they can give her a place to stay? It would make more sense to meet them outside a pub or on a well traveled thoroughfare; or at least under a street lamp so she would be seen by the person she is supposed to meet. That would make sense.
                              Best Wishes,
                              Cris Malone
                              ______________________________________________
                              "Objectivity comes from how the evidence is treated, not the nature of the evidence itself. Historians can be just as objective as any scientist."

                              Comment

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