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Possible new info on Michael Kidney

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  • Possible new info on Michael Kidney

    Before entering the Whitechapel Union Infirmary on 11th June 1889, Kidney was first in South Grove Whitechapel Union Workhouse:

    Admitted June 10th Michael kidney b 1853, entered from Christchurch area (no specific address given), religion- Roman Catholic. occupation- labourer ,single, discharged 11 6 89

    Whitechapel Infirmary-Admitted Tues June 11th, Michael Kidney, 36, admitted from workhouse, single, dock labourer, admitted for syphilis, 4 years settlement in Whitechapel Union. Discharged 24 6 89, religion Roman Catholic.
    This Infirmary Record is already known but posting the details to show no address was given for Kidney in June 1889 because he entered from teh South Grove workhouse, shown above.



    There are no census entries in England or Wales for Michael Kidney but interestingly there was a Michael Kidney attested to the Royal Artillery in 1877 at Cork. He was born in Kinsale, Cork, Ireland in in 1855. His Irish birth and residence and service abroad during 1881 could account for him not being on the 1871 or 1881 England and Wales census. The soldier was also resident at 86 St George Street, St George in the East whilst in the reserves:

    Michael Kidney

    Born Kinsale, Cork
    Attested age 22 , occupation net-maker.
    24th January 1877

    Description on attestation:
    5ft 9.5 in. Complexion-fresh, eyes-blue, hair-light brown, religion-Roman Catholic

    Description on discharge:
    5ft 9.5in., complexion-fresh, eyes-blue, hair-lt brown, intended place of residence 86 St George St., St George in the East.
    Next of kin mother Ellen, Kinsale Cork.

    Conduct in the service
    irregular, bad, moderate. 27/11/83
    irregular, bad, intemperate 6/12/84

    Attested in to 23 Brigade Royal Artiller, gunner, 29/1/77 to 30/6/77
    became 11 Brigade, gunner, 1/7/77 to 30/6/81
    service number changed from 2316 to 30555
    Fort Rockford Gosport

    Continued artillery gunner, 1/6/81 to 31/7/81
    Trial 1 /8/81 to 4/8/81 tried and imprisoned 5/8/81 to 11/8/81
    Gunner 12/8/81 to 31/3/82
    1st class A reserve transferred gunner 11/9/85 to 28/1/89
    Became 1 Brigade South Irish District , gunner 1/4/82 to 30/11/82
    1 Brigade Eastern Division transferred, gunner, 1/12/82 to 28/1/83
    gunner, 29/1/83 to 28/1/85
    gunner 29/7/85 to 18/9/85

    discharged at Great Yarmouth on 28th Jan 1889 on termination of his first period of Limited engagement
    Home 29/1/77 to 30/9/77
    Gibratlar 1/10/77 to 30/3/83
    Malta 31/3/82 to 26/11/82
    India 27/11/82 to 4/3/85
    Home 5/3/85 to 10/9/85
    Home 11/9/85 to 28/1/89

    character on being passed to reserve 'indifferent', character on being discharged 'good'
    Place of discharge Great Yarmouth, cause of discharge -termination of 1st period of Limited engagement. pension awarded 'none' residence 86 St George Street, St George in the East

    I think I have found this Michael Kidney's baptism record in Cork and also some Irish Court showing a man of the same age and birthplace as the soldier in court for drunkenness, sometimes assault, on numerous occasions during the 1870's. There is a description of this man so I will try and compare it to the soldier when I get a chance to see if it's the same man.

  • #2
    Absolutely fascinating. Thanks, Debs. Looking forward to reading more!
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen"
    (F. Nietzsche)

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes, good work Debs !!


      Would the army descriptions normally include facial hair ?
      In 1888 Kidney had Jimmy Edwards moustache.

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks for sharing ,Debs !!
        Great work !
        Xxxxxx
        To Join JTR Forums :
        Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

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        • #5
          Great work, Debs!

          Comment


          • #6
            Great stuff, Debs.


            I think the clincher was when Kidney said that if only the Army had put him in charge, we could have beaten the Zulus by lunchtime.

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            • #7
              Excellent information, Debra!
              The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                I think the clincher was when Kidney said that if only the Army had put him in charge, we could have beaten the Zulus by lunchtime.
                "My kingdom for a cab"

                Indeed, great work, Debs.
                Best Wishes,
                Cris Malone
                ______________________________________________
                "Objectivity comes from how the evidence is treated, not the nature of the evidence itself. Historians can be just as objective as any scientist."

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                • #9
                  Great work as always Debs.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well done, Debs. Fabulous information!

                    Best regards

                    Chris




                    Royal Artillery gunner in undress uniform.
                    Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                    https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                    Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                    Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Chris G. View Post
                      Well done, Debs. Fabulous information!

                      Best regards

                      Chris




                      Royal Artillery gunner in undress uniform.
                      THAT really looks like the later Michael Kidney from the newspaper drawing!

                      (Maybe he thought Liz was a Zulu hiding at the gateway of Dutfield's Yard?)
                      The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks to all of you.

                        This is the description of the Michael Kidney from the Irish prison records from 1876. It's not exactly the same but I wonder what others think of it as a comparison to the description of the soldier?

                        On the plus side, the age and birthplace is the same and also the prisoner disappears from the Irish Petty session records in 1876 which ties in with the soldier attested in 1877.


                        This is the the prison description:

                        Michael Kidney hair fair, eyes blue, nose long, mouth medium, complexion fresh, visage oval, build proportionate, height 5ft 8.5in.
                        a fisherman born in Kinsale, resident in Kinsale, father ??? Rose Abbey Kinsale
                        distinguishing marks-blue spot upper lip, right side of nose and left side of mouth. age 24 (in 1876 b c 1852)

                        This is the soldier from the records already posted:
                        Description on attestation:
                        5ft 9.5 in. Complexion-fresh, eyes-blue, hair-light brown, religion-Roman Catholic

                        Description on discharge:
                        5ft 9.5in., complexion-fresh, eyes-blue, hair-lt brown, intended place of residence 86 St George St., St George in the East.
                        Next of kin mother Ellen, Kinsale Cork.

                        The soldier had no distinguishing marks listed while the prisoner had a couple of blue spots listed, which sounds like they were scraping the barrel a little to find anything, given that this usually lists scars, moles, birthmarks etc.
                        Also we have net-maker versus fisherman, otherwise labourer in other court records, an inch height discrepancy and light brown versus fair hair..
                        ?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                          Thanks to all of you.

                          This is the description of the Michael Kidney from the Irish prison records from 1876. It's not exactly the same but I wonder what others think of it as a comparison to the description of the soldier?

                          On the plus side, the age and birthplace is the same and also the prisoner disappears from the Irish Petty session records in 1876 which ties in with the soldier attested in 1877.


                          This is the the prison description:

                          Michael Kidney hair fair, eyes blue, nose long, mouth medium, complexion fresh, visage oval, build proportionate, height 5ft 8.5in.
                          a fisherman born in Kinsale, resident in Kinsale, father ??? Rose Abbey Kinsale
                          distinguishing marks-blue spot upper lip, right side of nose and left side of mouth. age 24 (in 1876 b c 1852)

                          This is the soldier from the records already posted:
                          Description on attestation:
                          5ft 9.5 in. Complexion-fresh, eyes-blue, hair-light brown, religion-Roman Catholic

                          Description on discharge:
                          5ft 9.5in., complexion-fresh, eyes-blue, hair-lt brown, intended place of residence 86 St George St., St George in the East.
                          Next of kin mother Ellen, Kinsale Cork.

                          The soldier had no distinguishing marks listed while the prisoner had a couple of blue spots listed, which sounds like they were scraping the barrel a little to find anything, given that this usually lists scars, moles, birthmarks etc.
                          Also we have net-maker versus fisherman, otherwise labourer in other court records, an inch height discrepancy and light brown versus fair hair..
                          ?
                          Maybe the military took the height measurement while the soldier was wearing boots. Maybe the prison did it when the prisoner was barefooted. Also, maybe soldier Kidney stood straight and proud while prisoner Kidney slumped in dejection.

                          Do we know why he was in prison? It makes sense it could have something to do with drinking. Maybe he had injuries to his face that looked like something they were not. A deep bruise/haematoma COULD look like a dark mole or growth depending on how long it had been there. Could we picture him having fallen on his face or having been punched in the face?

                          Net maker is a skilled part of the fishing industry. It seems like a likely occupation for the son of a fisherman. I would think it implies he was good with his hands at that point in time. I wonder if he made nets of mended nets. Perhaps net makers did both.
                          The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                            Thanks to all of you.

                            This is the description of the Michael Kidney from the Irish prison records from 1876. It's not exactly the same but I wonder what others think of it as a comparison to the description of the soldier?

                            On the plus side, the age and birthplace is the same and also the prisoner disappears from the Irish Petty session records in 1876 which ties in with the soldier attested in 1877.


                            This is the the prison description:

                            Michael Kidney hair fair, eyes blue, nose long, mouth medium, complexion fresh, visage oval, build proportionate, height 5ft 8.5in.
                            a fisherman born in Kinsale, resident in Kinsale, father ??? Rose Abbey Kinsale
                            distinguishing marks-blue spot upper lip, right side of nose and left side of mouth. age 24 (in 1876 b c 1852)

                            This is the soldier from the records already posted:
                            Description on attestation:
                            5ft 9.5 in. Complexion-fresh, eyes-blue, hair-light brown, religion-Roman Catholic

                            Description on discharge:
                            5ft 9.5in., complexion-fresh, eyes-blue, hair-lt brown, intended place of residence 86 St George St., St George in the East.
                            Next of kin mother Ellen, Kinsale Cork.

                            The soldier had no distinguishing marks listed while the prisoner had a couple of blue spots listed, which sounds like they were scraping the barrel a little to find anything, given that this usually lists scars, moles, birthmarks etc.
                            Also we have net-maker versus fisherman, otherwise labourer in other court records, an inch height discrepancy and light brown versus fair hair..
                            ?
                            The two descriptions are close enough for it to be the same person, IMHO. Those blue spots are curious. In the East End a lot of the bad boys had blue spots/dots tattooed on their hands. Would Irish fisherman have tattooed their faces for some reason - identification in the event that they drowned? (Probably a silly idea.)

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                            • #15
                              Adds an extra dimension it a familiar character, good work indeed!
                              Thanks for your time,
                              dusty miller

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