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The workhouse as a place of remand-Elizabeth Stride at Bromley

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

    That certainly sounds as though it would explain the workhouse admission entries for adults, to be taken out by the police when fit. And obviously implies the people covered by this provision were "prisoners" because they had been arrested in connection with some offence.

    Maybe this also covers the similar entries for children, which seem a bit more numerous? Or maybe there was a different provision for children, because the workhouse was considered preferable to other forms of detention, even if they were not "prisoners"?
    There were a few paragraphs concerning the taking of children to the workhouse in the same 1893 MEPO Instruction book (I assume other years were published but that is the only one nearest the 80's that I could see.) Children who were picked up by police for being on the streets, begging, deserted, etc were taken to the workhouse when there was no immediate magistrate sitting that they could appear before. The way I understand it is that a magistrate would be needed to order a child to be removed from its parents and taken to an industrial school, training ship etc or other institution. Similar to being taken in to care. I'll try and post the related paragraphs later on.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post

      There were a few paragraphs concerning the taking of children to the workhouse in the same 1893 MEPO Instruction book (I assume other years were published but that is the only one nearest the 80's that I could see.) Children who were picked up by police for being on the streets, begging, deserted, etc were taken to the workhouse when there was no immediate magistrate sitting that they could appear before. The way I understand it is that a magistrate would be needed to order a child to be removed from its parents and taken to an industrial school, training ship etc or other institution. Similar to being taken in to care. I'll try and post the related paragraphs later on.
      Thanks. That sounds as though it explains the entries we've seen.

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      • #18
        Stepney union Bromley
        Admitted Friday 13 Feb. 1880 Elizabeth Stride born 1834, needle[woman] wife of John, carpenter discharged 13 Feb. 1880 Brought by P.C. 351K taken out by P.C. 148K
        Bromley House admission and discharge
        Admitted Friday 13th Feb 1880, Elizabeth Stride born 1834, occupation-needle, religion C of E, parish admitted from Ratcliff, brought by P.C. 148K from King David P.S. discharged 13th Feb 1880, charged to Ratcliff parish, taken out by P.C. 148K
        STBG/L/132/23 and STBG/L/133/01

        Seems to be three "poor law" establishments.

        Here is Stepney Union Workhouse.


        Stepney-Union-Resized-800x445.jpg
        Stride was then taken to Bromley House,probably for medical reasons.

        Then,possibly to or from Ratcliff.

        She likely suffered from .....


        Hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia - Wikipedia

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        • #19
          Originally posted by D.J.Adams View Post
          Stepney union Bromley
          Admitted Friday 13 Feb. 1880 Elizabeth Stride born 1834, needle[woman] wife of John, carpenter discharged 13 Feb. 1880 Brought by P.C. 351K taken out by P.C. 148K
          Bromley House admission and discharge
          Admitted Friday 13th Feb 1880, Elizabeth Stride born 1834, occupation-needle, religion C of E, parish admitted from Ratcliff, brought by P.C. 148K from King David P.S. discharged 13th Feb 1880, charged to Ratcliff parish, taken out by P.C. 148K
          STBG/L/132/23 and STBG/L/133/01

          Seems to be three "poor law" establishments.

          Here is Stepney Union Workhouse.


          Stepney-Union-Resized-800x445.jpg
          Stride was then taken to Bromley House,probably for medical reasons.

          Then,possibly to or from Ratcliff.

          She likely suffered from .....


          Hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia - Wikipedia
          I would have read the reference to Ratcliff as purely indicating what parish she belonged to, rather than as to a separate institution.

          Maybe it's my ignorance, but why do you think she suffered from hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
            Alice’s August, 1877 admission seems to have been after she had been formally charged at a police station. Perhaps some health issue (fits, perhaps) had been identified there and it was considered safer to move her to the workhouse rather than leave her overnight in a cell. She was admitted and discharged on the same day, most likely in in the early hours and out again once the police court was in session.
            I think you're correct Gary, And section 277 below could be the reason there is a note to 'see police report' in the Infirmary records:

            275 Drunken prisoners are not to be sent to a Workhouse unless the surgeon recommends it on the grounds that there is reason to apprehend serious danger to health from confinement in a Police cell.
            277 When a prisoner cherged with any offence is taken to a Hospital and it is requsite that such persons should remain under medical treatment, a report of the circumstances of the case is to be made to the Commissioner for directions as to whether a Constable is to remainon duty at the Hospital in charge of the prisoner. This order applies not only to cases where a prisoner is removed by the Police to a Hospital, but to cases where a person, reasonably suspected of a crime justifying an arrest has gone or been taken by friends to a Hospital, and is found there by Police.

            MEPO 8/4: Metropolitan Police: General Orders S6 Branch Regulations

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            • #21
              Originally posted by D.J.Adams View Post
              Stepney union Bromley
              Admitted Friday 13 Feb. 1880 Elizabeth Stride born 1834, needle[woman] wife of John, carpenter discharged 13 Feb. 1880 Brought by P.C. 351K taken out by P.C. 148K
              Bromley House admission and discharge
              Admitted Friday 13th Feb 1880, Elizabeth Stride born 1834, occupation-needle, religion C of E, parish admitted from Ratcliff, brought by P.C. 148K from King David P.S. discharged 13th Feb 1880, charged to Ratcliff parish, taken out by P.C. 148K
              STBG/L/132/23 and STBG/L/133/01

              Seems to be three "poor law" establishments.

              Here is Stepney Union Workhouse.



              Stride was then taken to Bromley House,probably for medical reasons.

              Then,possibly to or from Ratcliff.

              She likely suffered from .....


              Hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia - Wikipedia
              There is no evidence it was for medical reasons. Bromley House was a workhouse and not an Infirmary. We'd need to find her being admitted to an Infirmary on the same day, brought in by police as she was discharged to police from the workhouse on 13 Feb 1880.
              I agree with Chris about the mention of Ratcliff, these were likely for settlement issues.

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              • #22
                Who here thinks its possible that Anderson's suspect went to the Stepney Union Workhouse?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Bromley House had medical staff that Stepney Union Workhouse did not.

                  Ratcliff could go either way,which is why I said "possibly".

                  Elizabeth_stride_100.jpg Stride's bottom lip.Hip Lip Lizzie.

                  The cachous she took from Henry ...... oops,Jack the Ripper's palm with her finger and thumb were medication for her disease.Last thing she did.Her killer had knowledge of her disease.
                  He also had knowledge of Nichols and Eddowes medical history,however that's OT.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
                    Who here thinks its possible that Anderson's suspect went to the Stepney Union Workhouse?
                    Prolly no one

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by D.J.Adams View Post
                      Bromley House had medical staff that Stepney Union Workhouse did not.

                      Ratcliff could go either way,which is why I said "possibly".

                      Elizabeth_stride_100.jpg Stride's bottom lip.Hip Lip Lizzie.

                      The cachous she took from Henry ...... oops,Jack the Ripper's palm with her finger and thumb were medication for her disease.Last thing she did.Her killer had knowledge of her disease.
                      He also had knowledge of Nichols and Eddowes medical history,however that's OT.
                      Ratcliff didn’t have a workhouse at the time.

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                      • #26
                        True.

                        RATCLIFFE WORKHOUSE | The National Archives

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                        • #27
                          Presumably, then, Stride was resident in Ratcliff parish when she was admitted.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

                            I would have read the reference to Ratcliff as purely indicating what parish she belonged to, rather than as to a separate institution.

                            Maybe it's my ignorance, but why do you think she suffered from hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia?
                            Dave has a ‘theory’…

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by D.J.Adams View Post
                              Bromley House had medical staff that Stepney Union Workhouse did not.

                              Ratcliff could go either way,which is why I said "possibly".


                              Poplar and Stepney Sick Asylum was the Infirmary.
                              Ratcliff was the parish she entered Bromley House workhouse, Stepney from. It is also noted in the creed register for Bromley House workhouse that Stride was admitted from Ratcliffe, other inmates listed are from Poplar, Limehouse and Shadwell.
                              'Hippy lip Annie' (maybe Hippy lipped Annie) sounds suspiciously similar to Stride being called 'Epileptic Annie' by the Star in Oct 1888 and we know Stride was supposed to be subject to fits.

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                              • #30
                                HHT causes seizures when AVMs are involved.



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