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  • Why didn't JTR kill Diemschutz?

    Hello, chaps. Something just now occured to me. Since we know Dutfield's Yard at the time only had one way in and one way out, the implication is that while Diemschutz was looking at Stride's body, then JTR (or her some other individual) was hiding in the shadows and then left when Louie went into the Socialists club to make sure it wasn't his wife. The question I have is, if Liz's murderer was indeed JTR, why didn't he just quickly do away with Diemschutz. If he had, he could've stashed Diemschutz's body in the shadows quickly and then go back to mutilating Stride or, at the very least, leave Dutfield's Yard more calmly and with less risk of being seen.

    I know this seems far-fetched but we have to remember JTR is a ballsy fellow. For his last murder, he actually walked through a lodging house (with people overhead sleeping or just getting up for work), the sun was coming up, and he ran the risk of exposure since he was in a back yard with windows overlooking the area. So, this guy definitely is not averse to take risks and I can see him jumping out of the shadows, kill Diemschutz quickly, and then return to work. Anyone care to comment?

  • #2
    No way would he have killed Diemschutz, but he had, I suppose, the option of quietly slipping his knife onto the back of D's cart as he escaped. It might have shifted the blame. But then he'd have nothing left to kill with.

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    • #3
      Taking risks, yes, ballsy fellow, no! Imo, JtR took those risks, because his strong urge to kill and mutilate overrode his fear to be discovered. He preyed on weak and easy targets, which, again imo, makes him a coward. I can't see him attack a man, when he has other options. If Diemschutz had seen and tried to catch hold of JtR, then maybe, but not in the situation as it was.

      (And *if* it was actually JtR who killed Stride.)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by JTRSickert View Post
        Hello, chaps. Something just now occured to me. Since we know Dutfield's Yard at the time only had one way in and one way out, the implication is that while Diemschutz was looking at Stride's body, then JTR (or her some other individual) was hiding in the shadows and then left when Louie went into the Socialists club to make sure it wasn't his wife. The question I have is, if Liz's murderer was indeed JTR, why didn't he just quickly do away with Diemschutz. If he had, he could've stashed Diemschutz's body in the shadows quickly and then go back to mutilating Stride or, at the very least, leave Dutfield's Yard more calmly and with less risk of being seen.

        I know this seems far-fetched but we have to remember JTR is a ballsy fellow. For his last murder, he actually walked through a lodging house (with people overhead sleeping or just getting up for work), the sun was coming up, and he ran the risk of exposure since he was in a back yard with windows overlooking the area. So, this guy definitely is not averse to take risks and I can see him jumping out of the shadows, kill Diemschutz quickly, and then return to work. Anyone care to comment?
        What do you mean by "his last murder" -- are you talking about Miller's Court? Sounds more as if you mean Hanbury Street.... ah I see you do mean the last murder before Stride, Annie Chapman, before dawn on 8 September 1888 in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street.

        29 Hanbury Street was not exactly a lodging house in the same way Crossingham's Lodging House was. It was a private residence and packing case manufacturer plus cat's meat shop. And we don't know if the killer made his escape by walking through the passageway -- he could have climbed over the fence. Probably in an opposite direction to the backyard next door where Richardson and Cadosch were going in and out of the neighboring house.

        As for why he didn't kill Diemschutz, I assume he somehow made his escape in the darkness, possibly exiting through the club or else somehow through the buildings toward the back of the yard but he didn't think it worthwhile to kill Diemschutz, who, if his testimony is correct, didn't see him. Also, let's say, he had a higher calling that night. . . .

        Chris
        Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
        https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

        Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
        Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

        Comment


        • #5
          An interesting supposition Chris G, but here's another one for you.

          If JTR was indeed the killer of Stride, and if Diemshutz hadn't gotten in the way at interrupting him to perform his mutilations, would I be correct in saying that Catherine Eddowes would've still been alive if it hadn't been for that pesky Diemschutz? Again, this is supposeing JTR was Stride's killer, which is not definite.

          I wonder how Diemschutz himself felt about this if he later learned about it. I do know he was arrested a year later for fighting with some cops outside the club.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by JTRSickert View Post
            An interesting supposition Chris G, but here's another one for you.

            If JTR was indeed the killer of Stride, and if Diemshutz hadn't gotten in the way at interrupting him to perform his mutilations, would I be correct in saying that Catherine Eddowes would've still been alive if it hadn't been for that pesky Diemschutz? Again, this is supposeing JTR was Stride's killer, which is not definite.

            I wonder how Diemschutz himself felt about this if he later learned about it. I do know he was arrested a year later for fighting with some cops outside the club.
            Although there are some that will not agree with me, it was the same unique deep throat cut, severing the windpipe clear back to the backbone, seen in the other four canonical murders and in no other murders at the time, so yes I think he was killed by the same man who killed the other four women, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly.

            As for your question of whether Eddowes would have been killed if he had been able to perform his mutilations, the first question might be, would he have dared perform those mutilations next to a busy socialist club when he might expect to be interrupted at any moment? It was a precarious place to do his "full act" in any case, wasn't it. So that brings up the idea that he killed Stride as a diversion to take his full satisfaction later.

            We have to consider the hue and cry that occurred after the murders of Tabram, Nichols, and Chapman. I don't think Tabram was a Ripper crime but at the time people believed her murder to be part of the series of crimes done by the same man.

            By the end of September, everyone was looking for the murderer, rewards were being offered (though not by the British Government), vigilance committee members were patrolling the streets at night with blackened faces (per Inspector Edmund Reid's later recollection), along with coppers drafted in from other divisions.

            He could have been feeling very nervous by this point which might explain the three week gap between Chapman on 8 September and the Double Event on 30 September and the complete absence of murders in October. He lay low both times, afraid to try another murder.

            So Stride was murdered to enable him to do the "full monty" later on with Eddowes in Mitre Square in Aldgate. Moreover, this time, he crossed police boundaries, from the Metropolitan Police area to the City Police area, in order to further confuse the issue. Of course, I might be giving the man more credit than he deserves but if he did do what I hypothesize might have happened, it worked for him: he got away with bloody murder yet again without being caught.

            Chris
            Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
            https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

            Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
            Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

            Comment


            • #7
              Great Dissimilarity

              Originally posted by Chris G. View Post
              Although there are some that will not agree with me, it was the same unique deep throat cut, severing the windpipe clear back to the backbone, seen in the other four canonical murders and in no other murders at the time, so yes I think he was killed by the same man who killed the other four women, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly.
              ...
              Chris
              In his evidence at the Stride inquest, Dr. Bagster Phillips stated -

              "The throat was deeply gashed...There was a clean-cut incision on the neck. It was 6 inches in length and commenced two and a half inches in a straight line below the angle of the jaw, three quarters of an inch over an undivided muscle, and then, becoming deeper, dividing the sheath. The cut was very clean, and deviated a little downwards. The artery and other vessels contained in the sheath were all cut through. The cut through the tissues on the right side was more superficial, and tailed off to about two inches below the right angle of the jaw. The deep vessels on that side were uninjured. From this it was evident that the haemorrhage was caused through the partial severance of the left carotid artery." and...

              "I have seen several self-inflicted wounds more extensive than this one, but then they have not divided the carotid artery."

              Phillips was asked by the coroner if there 'was any other similarity between this and Chapman's case. He replied, "There is a great dissimilarity. In Chapman's case the neck was severed all round to the vertebral column, the vertical bone being marked, and there had been an evident attempt to separate the bones."

              Comment


              • #8
                Ultra Violet:

                With all due respect to your views, to me it would depend on how someone approached the Ripper ( lets add the Stride murder to the mix) when he was busy at his work. I firmly believe he would have stabbed anyone in his way if cornered and if he had been come up upon while at work, watch out !

                JTRSickert:

                Diemschutz was arrested in a melee involving other Jews antithetical to the socialist message who came up on the Berner Street building in 1889. It was while fighting back a larger crowd that he and Kozebrodski and one more landsmann got popped for popping a policeman or two. The brawl didn't originally start between lefties and the police...but between Jews on Jews.

                Dear C.G.

                So Stride was murdered to enable him to do the "full monty" later on with Eddowes in Mitre Square in Aldgate. Moreover, this time, he crossed police boundaries, from the Metropolitan Police area to the City Police area, in order to further confuse the issue. C.G

                No offense and all due respect....it appears that you are supporting the often remarked claim that the Ripper ( if Stride's murderer in this case ) was cognizant of the territorial boundaries of the two police departments.

                Is that the case?
                To Join JTR Forums :
                Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

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                • #9
                  I don't think the Ripper would want to "throw down the two dollars, to win that prize". A grown man may present a more formidable challenge, than an intoxicated women weak with hunger. It's one thing if he was observed, then it's a matter of "fight or flight". Preferably the former. That way it becomes an issue of practicality. As "dead men tell no tales".

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by How Brown View Post

                    Dear C.G.

                    So Stride was murdered to enable him to do the "full monty" later on with Eddowes in Mitre Square in Aldgate. Moreover, this time, he crossed police boundaries, from the Metropolitan Police area to the City Police area, in order to further confuse the issue. C.G

                    No offense and all due respect....it appears that you are supporting the often remarked claim that the Ripper ( if Stride's murderer in this case ) was cognizant of the territorial boundaries of the two police departments.

                    Is that the case?
                    Hi Howard

                    I am not sure he was aware of the police boundaries but he could have been if he was sophisticated enough to have, as I said, committed one murder in order to create a distraction and then murder another woman later in another district.

                    Chris
                    Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                    https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                    Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                    Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Okay C.G....thanks for the reply.
                      To Join JTR Forums :
                      Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

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                      • #12
                        I just want to point out that since there were many people still inside the IWMC drinking, talking, and singing, I think if JTR wanted to do a blitz-style attack on Diemshutz to get him out of the way, it probably wouldn't have been heard.

                        Also, if we assume JTR was hiding in the yard while Diemschutz inspected the body, was he simply somewhere in the shadows or were there some objects in the yard at the time he could've crouched under or hid behind?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by How Brown View Post
                          Ultra Violet:

                          With all due respect to your views, to me it would depend on how someone approached the Ripper ( lets add the Stride murder to the mix) when he was busy at his work. I firmly believe he would have stabbed anyone in his way if cornered and if he had been come up upon while at work, watch out !
                          Sorry for answering only now (I've been very busy the last two months), but
                          I said

                          "I can't see him attack a man, when he has other options."

                          Being cornered or getting caught in the act doesn't leave other options but fight or surrender. So to me it seems pretty likely that in such a situation he would have attacked.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            29 Hanbury St

                            Originally posted by Chris G. View Post
                            .... And we don't know if the killer made his escape by walking through the passageway -- he could have climbed over the fence. Probably in an opposite direction to the backyard next door where Richardson and Cadosch were going in and out of the neighboring house.

                            As for why he didn't kill Diemschutz, I assume he somehow made his escape in the darkness, possibly exiting through the club or else somehow through the buildings toward the back of the yard but he didn't think it worthwhile to kill Diemschutz, who, if his testimony is correct, didn't see him. Also, let's say, he had a higher calling that night. . . .

                            Chris
                            Chris,

                            AS you may know, on YouTube there is a film clip showing 29 Hanbury St, the back yard and the fence...as it was in 1888, a rare clip featuring James Mason, doing a thing about Old London. The escape route you mention certainly is probable.

                            www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjIUQqrkJdU

                            best wishes

                            Phil
                            from 1905...to 19.05..it was written in the stars

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Once seen John Bennet's Ripperland- that scene....will never be quite the same again.............

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