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Was the death of Emma Smith intentional?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post
    How, this is part of an article from The Pall Mall Gazette, Saturday 13 October 1888

    [ATTACH]21086[/ATTACH]

    Rob
    The Times on Saturday January the 19th mention the Monkey Parade Gang as part of a moral panic style article about gangs.

    The_Times_Sat__Jan_19__1889_.jpg

    But when Lloyds Newspaper reported on them on Sunday, June 9th 1885 they sound more like 'annoying' children than a gang of hardened criminals.
    Attached Files

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    • #32
      They don't sound very scary when they turn up again in Commercial Road, reported in the Daily News, November 26 1896:

      Daily_News_Tue__Nov_24__1896_.jpg
      Daily_News_Tue__Nov_24__1896_ (1).jpg

      A "monkey parade" ends up sound like a sort of hooligan game than serious organised crime.

      There are other entries using 'monkey parade' in this kind of context periodically until the 1930s.

      Comment


      • #33
        There are fairly regular violent assaults in and around Osborn Street over the years. Including the discussed 'Timothy Donovan' case, which is a full ten years before the attack on Emma Smith, but the description Minnie Thomas gave of the kicks to her lower body does remind somewhat of the attack on Emily Horsnell.

        JAMES SHAW (26) , Robbery, with violence, on James Larman, 1871

        https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...=t18710605-463

        The 1878 'Timothy Donovan' case. I find his attitude chilling.

        Is it likely that if I stole a shilling from a prostitute I should come back to the spot? She never mentioned the shilling till afterwards. She has given a wrong name; she cohabits with a man and goes out to keep him. The detective can speak for me if he likes.
        https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...v=t18811121-40

        CHARLES WOOD (32) , Feloniously and violently assaulting William Collin, 1881

        I am a labourer, of 83, Wentworth Street?on Saturday night, 17th October, I was in Osborne Street?I had a tobaccobox and 3s. in my right-hand trousers pocket?three men got hold of me, and threw me on my back?I tried to halloa, but one "of them put his hand on my throat; another took what I had in my pocket?one held my arm, and I could not move
        https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...=t18780311-345

        GEORGE ARNOLD (24) , Robbery with violence on Edward Bagley, 1888

        I went into a public-house and called for a glass of ale?five or six men rushed on me; one snatched at my watch, and one put his hand in my pocket and took 30s. out?I was pushed down on the floor?one of them shoved his hand over my eyes so that I could not see the others' faces
        https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...=t18880528-553

        I find Emma Smith description of the attack on her plausible because groups of men mobbing someone in order to rob them, is definitely the kind of crime which was being committed in the area.

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        • #34
          Hi Sean
          I researched the Timothy Donovan involved in the attack on Minnie Thomas in 1878 as part of my research in to identifying Timothy Donovan , lodging house deputy of 1888. It was quite a few years and a computer or so ago so I don't have the research to hand but it turned out that the Timothy Donovan involved in this attack died from phthisis a couple of years after the incident . He had been released from prison early and spent time in a workhouse infirmary before his death in the early 80s IIRC. I came across his photograph in a prison mugshot book and was shocked to see a child looking back!

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
            Hi Sean
            I researched the Timothy Donovan involved in the attack on Minnie Thomas in 1878 as part of my research in to identifying Timothy Donovan , lodging house deputy of 1888. It was quite a few years and a computer or so ago so I don't have the research to hand but it turned out that the Timothy Donovan involved in this attack died from phthisis a couple of years after the incident . He had been released from prison early and spent time in a workhouse infirmary before his death in the early 80s IIRC. I came across his photograph in a prison mugshot book and was shocked to see a child looking back!
            Debs/Sean,

            I was more interested in Tommy McCarthy. Here’s another example of a ‘gang’ committing a street robbery which involves a Tommy McCarthy. One of the other men involved was my grandad.

            https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...-689#highlight

            This sort of thing happened all the time. Robbing doss house prostitutes and using the extreme level of violence that was meted out to Emma Smith was not so common.

            As an aside, I notice the OB online transcripts now have a button which takes you to the Digital Panopticon record for the accused. My grandad’s DP record now gives a reference to a licence record that I can?t see to find on the NA site or elsewhere. Annoying!

            Gary

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
              Debs/Sean,

              I was more interested in Tommy McCarthy. Here?s another example of a ?gang? committing a street robbery which involves a Tommy McCarthy. One of the other men involved was my grandad.

              https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...-689#highlight

              This sort of thing happened all the time. Robbing doss house prostitutes and using the extreme level of violence that was meted out to Emma Smith was not so common.

              As an aside, I notice the OB online transcripts now have a button which takes you to the Digital Panopticon record for the accused. My grandad?s DP record now gives a reference to a licence record that I can?t see to find on the NA site or elsewhere. Annoying!

              Gary
              Debs,

              I didn?t mean to be dismissive of your Donovan research. It?s just that the name ?Tommy McCarthy? sets my ears twitching. The one I?m interested in was known as ?Tommy the Dip?. There was also one at the centre of the Great Peter Street riot and, so I heard recently over on Casebook, one who was the son of a prostitute and Charles Lechmere?s next door neighbour.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

                As an aside, I notice the OB online transcripts now have a button which takes you to the Digital Panopticon record for the accused. My grandad?s DP record now gives a reference to a licence record that I can?t see to find on the NA site or elsewhere. Annoying!

                Gary
                Gary, maybe his licence was revoked? Did he commit any offences whilst out on licence?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                  Gary, maybe his licence was revoked? Did he commit any offences whilst out on licence?
                  I don’t think so, Debs. The DP shows this and provides a link to the NA, but as far as I can see the NA doesn’t have male licences for this period.

                  5878092A-2A45-43EF-995A-43553F97D7F5.jpeg

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                  • #39
                    Neither does FMP. I think the last date I could see was 1899.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                      Hi Sean
                      I researched the Timothy Donovan involved in the attack on Minnie Thomas in 1878 as part of my research in to identifying Timothy Donovan , lodging house deputy of 1888. It was quite a few years and a computer or so ago so I don't have the research to hand but it turned out that the Timothy Donovan involved in this attack died from phthisis a couple of years after the incident . He had been released from prison early and spent time in a workhouse infirmary before his death in the early 80s IIRC. I came across his photograph in a prison mugshot book and was shocked to see a child looking back!
                      Here he is:
                      Timothy Donovan 1878.JPG

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                        Neither does FMP. I think the last date I could see was 1899.
                        I wonder where the DP got the info from?

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                          Here he is:
                          [ATTACH]21679[/ATTACH]
                          Blimey! He’s a tiddler.

                          Great photo though.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                            Blimey! He?s a tiddler.

                            Great photo though.
                            4' 11" and six stone wet through.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                              4' 11" and six stones wet through.
                              I agree with you about the impact of photos. Some of them are very haunting.

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