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Trafalgar Square/Mary Ann Nichols : Source Needed

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  • #16
    looking at the A to Z you could be right,Tom.
    Mary Ann Nichols was admitted to the Lambeth workhouse in Dec 1887 according to the A to Z. This, combined with the Sept 3 1888 report that Polly had been arrested for being homeless in Trafalgar Square 'last year' [1887] and sent to Lambeth Infirmary seem to have been married up as a possibility?
    The A to Z doesn't mention the Oct 1887 Trafalgar Square incident in her timeline, instead mentioning her living with someone from 2 June 1883 to 25 Oct 1887, then going to St Giles and Strand workhouse.
    As the Lambeth workhouse records have been searched that probably means Polly didn't go there after the Oct 87 incident?

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    • #17
      The Dec 1887 creed register says Mary Nichols was admitted on Dec 20th 1887 from the casual ward. Nothing for her for October 87.

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      • #18
        I wouldn't have thought that if Mary Ann Nichols was arrested in Trafalgar Square she would have been sent to Lambeth Infirmary/Workhouse as it is a different parish. I wonder if it is just a mix up of the October incident?

        Rob

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post
          I wouldn't have thought that if Mary Ann Nichols was arrested in Trafalgar Square she would have been sent to Lambeth Infirmary/Workhouse as it is a different parish. I wonder if it is just a mix up of the October incident?

          Rob
          Hi Rob,
          Yes, it seems that way. I wonder where the reporters got the idea she was sent to the Lambeth workhouse after being picked up though?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
            Hi Rob,
            Yes, it seems that way. I wonder where the reporters got the idea she was sent to the Lambeth workhouse after being picked up though?
            Hi Debs,

            Wish I knew. The Admissions and Discharge Register should say I would have thought. There should be a column 'Where sent from' or something like that?
            But if she was in Lambeth presumably she was in Lambeth in the first place?

            Rob

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post
              Hi Debs,

              Wish I knew. The Admissions and Discharge Register should say I would have thought. There should be a column 'Where sent from' or something like that?
              But if she was in Lambeth presumably she was in Lambeth in the first place?

              Rob
              Rob, I can't find the admission and discharge registers just now but i just posted the creed register entry for the Lambeth workhouse that said she was admitted from the casual ward. Could the police send people to the casual ward?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                Rob, I can't find the admission and discharge registers just now but i just posted the creed register entry for the Lambeth workhouse that said she was admitted from the casual ward. Could the police send people to the casual ward?
                Yeah I think they could do Debs, presuming there was something wrong with her? I thought a lot of casual ward entries were self admittance?

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                • #23
                  Just a thought, but if someone was known to be a regular at a certain workhouse or workhouses within one borough, and/or perhaps stated so themselves, then may the magistrates they came before not decide to send them back there rather than admit them to a workhouse in their own borough, thus avoiding the expense?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post
                    Yeah I think they could do Debs, presuming there was something wrong with her? I thought a lot of casual ward entries were self admittance?
                    Rob,in the 1887 article it mentions that the homeless in TF were advised they could go to a casual ward for the night if there was nowhere else (more for the homeless?). Is the casual ward part of the workhouse- was there a Lambeth casual ward, a Whitechapel casual ward etc.?!

                    I do think Tom has highlighted something interesting here. Originally,I just presumed that the Oct 87 article was the source for Polly being an arrested vagrant. As I said on the thread I linked to, I didn't think to check any press circa Sept 88.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                      Rob,in the 1887 article it mentions that the homeless in TF were advised they could go to a casual ward for the night if there was nowhere else (more for the homeless?). Is the casual ward part of the workhouse- was there a Lambeth casual ward, a Whitechapel casual ward etc.?!

                      I do think Tom has highlighted something interesting here. Originally,I just presumed that the Oct 87 article was the source for Polly being an arrested vagrant. As I said on the thread I linked to, I didn't think to check any press circa Sept 88.
                      If she was sleeping rough in December 1887 and went from there to the Lambeth Casual Ward, she would have had to go there on her own accord. The Police wouldn't have had the power to send her to Lambeth but to St Giles like the October newspaper.
                      I think all Workhouses/Infirmaries had casual wards. They were usually separate buildings. And I think the Lambeth one was in Wincott Street.

                      Rob

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post
                        If she was sleeping rough in December 1887 and went from there to the Lambeth Casual Ward, she would have had to go there on her own accord. The Police wouldn't have had the power to send her to Lambeth but to St Giles like the October newspaper.
                        I think all Workhouses/Infirmaries had casual wards. They were usually separate buildings. And I think the Lambeth one was in Wincott Street.

                        Rob
                        Hi Rob, What do you mean like the Oct newspaper?
                        She spent one night at St Giles on Oct 25th 1887. Is that an acceptable workhouse to be sent to from Trafalgar square? It ties in date wise.

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                        • #27
                          Hi all,

                          Just to recap for those joining. The detail that Polly was sleeping rough in Trafalgar Square in December, 1887, as reporter in a number of places, appears not to be fact. A Morning Advertiser (and probably other papers) report of Sept. 3rd, 1888 mentioned she had been arrested for sleeping rough and sent to Lambeth Workhouse. Because the press reports of her October 1887 arrest in TS were not discovered (by Debs) until 2010, somebody assumed this undated arrest corresponded to her December admittance to the Lambeth Workhouse. Most likely, the Morning Advertiser report was referring to her October arrest. The Lambeth Workhouse detail might have been an ssumption on the part of the reporter due to the fact that Polly's clothes bore the Lambeth Workhouse name and she was first identified by an inmate of that Workhouse, Mary Ann Monk.

                          It's a seemingly minor detail, but I'm glad we worked it out. I'm trying to clean up Polly's timeline as best I can and I've found errors both by the contemporary police and modern researchers. If I can avoided passing on any errors in my own work, then I'd like to do so. So thanks for your help everyone.

                          Yours truly,

                          Tom Wescott

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                            Hi Rob, What do you mean like the Oct newspaper?
                            She spent one night at St Giles on Oct 25th 1887. Is that an acceptable workhouse to be sent to from Trafalgar square? It ties in date wise.
                            Hi Debs,

                            I'm not disputing the October 87 newspaper, I'm just doubtful it is our Mary Ann Nichols. I think she was just released from the Police Station anyway wasn't she?
                            I'm doubtful that the December Trafalgar Square incident happened.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post
                              Hi Debs,

                              I'm not disputing the October 87 newspaper, I'm just doubtful it is our Mary Ann Nichols.
                              Really? Both Nichols had Wandsworth connections, the contemporary press said Nichols was sleeping rough in the square, and if you're correct, then German Moggy and Margaret German are not the same person. I'd say the evidence weighs in favor of the Mary Ann Nichols in the Oct. 87 press being one and the same as Polly.

                              Yours truly,

                              Tom Wescott

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                                Hi all,

                                Just to recap for those joining. The detail that Polly was sleeping rough in Trafalgar Square in December, 1887, as reporter in a number of places, appears not to be fact. A Morning Advertiser (and probably other papers) report of Sept. 3rd, 1888 mentioned she had been arrested for sleeping rough and sent to Lambeth Workhouse. Because the press reports of her October 1887 arrest in TS were not discovered (by Debs) until 2010, somebody assumed this undated arrest corresponded to her December admittance to the Lambeth Workhouse. Most likely, the Morning Advertiser report was referring to her October arrest. The Lambeth Workhouse detail might have been an ssumption on the part of the reporter due to the fact that Polly's clothes bore the Lambeth Workhouse name and she was first identified by an inmate of that Workhouse, Mary Ann Monk.

                                It's a seemingly minor detail, but I'm glad we worked it out. I'm trying to clean up Polly's timeline as best I can and I've found errors both by the contemporary police and modern researchers. If I can avoided passing on any errors in my own work, then I'd like to do so. So thanks for your help everyone.

                                Yours truly,

                                Tom Wescott
                                Flippin' 'eck I think I agree!
                                Time for a lie down and two aspirin.

                                Comment

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