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A Note About Polly's Bonnet

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  • #46
    Talking about old sayings, when we got dirty my nan used to say what sounded like 'Look at you, you're as black as Nooker's knocker.' I had no idea what it meant and when I got older I thought maybe 'Nooker' was the devil.

    Then one day the penny dropped. She wasn't saying 'Nooker's' she was saying 'Newgate's'. As black as Newgate's knocker makes perfect sense. Last time I went to the Museum of London they had one of the doors of Newgate prison, complete with its very black knocker, on display.

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    • #47
      One of the chief leisure activities of the women in Bluegate fields was biting lumps out of each other. Noses, ears, fingers, lips etc were all considered fair game. I wonder if there was a protocol that governed the hemlines of the ladies of the 'fields'.

      PC to Bluegate Fields woman:

      'I'm arresting you for going hatless and wearing a skirt of inappropriate length.'

      BGFW:

      'You have me bang to roits, Sor. Is it okay if I pick up me nose before you carries me off '

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      • #48
        Gary, i had the same experience only I misheard it as "Nugent's knocker."

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
          Gary, i had the same experience only I misheard it as "Nugent's knocker."
          Emily no doubt.

          It's a great old saying, isn't it?

          I'm going to create my own and start telling the grandkids they're growing 'as tall as Tyburn tree'. And I'll leave an extra share of the Barnett millions to the first one of them who can discover the origin of the phrase.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by jachim3926 View Post
            If it is of any help to settle this truly fascinating topic, my dear late mother who heralded from deepest Berkshire had an old saying that went along the lines of ' 'Red Hat. No Drawers', Hope this helps anyone with a bee in their bonnet!
            Are you sure it wasn't "fur coat & no drawers"?
            That one I heard a lot when I was a kid.
            Regards, Jon S.
            "
            The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
            " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
            Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post

              Also, as I recall, 1888 was kind of a cold, wet year and bonnets serve more purposes than fashion. Surely any woman who could afford or scrounge head gear would welcome it in inclement weather?
              Eddowes was wearing a bonnet, but it had been raining according to Lawende, but then we can't say for sure that Eddowes was soliciting after being let out of Bishopsgate station that morning.

              Liz was wearing a bonnet but again, some have pointed out that her attention to her attire that night, like she was going on a date rather than soliciting.
              I don't think Chapman was wearing a bonnet.

              Two people saw Kelly without a bonnet that night, Cox at midnight, and Kennedy around 3:00 am.
              Hutchinson doesn't mention a bonnet if she was wearing one, but probably wasn't.
              Regards, Jon S.
              "
              The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
              " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
              Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
                Eddowes was wearing a bonnet, but it had been raining according to Lawende, but then we can't say for sure that Eddowes was soliciting after being let out of Bishopsgate station that morning.

                Liz was wearing a bonnet but again, some have pointed out that her attention to her attire that night, like she was going on a date rather than soliciting.
                I don't think Chapman was wearing a bonnet.

                Two people saw Kelly without a bonnet that night, Cox at midnight, and Kennedy around 3:00 am.
                Hutchinson doesn't mention a bonnet if she was wearing one, but probably wasn't.
                Didn't Dew mention Kelly and her pals strutting their stuff sans headgear?

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                  Didn't Dew mention Kelly and her pals strutting their stuff sans headgear?
                  I think he says that Kelly didn't wear a hat, not necessarily the "two or three of her kind" who accompanied her.
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen"
                  (F. Nietzsche)

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                    I think he says that Kelly didn't wear a hat, not necessarily the "two or three of her kind" who accompanied her.
                    Thanks for the clarification, Gareth. I'd remembered the story slightly incorrectly.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Hallie McGrath View Post
                      Ah ha - and here lies the entire problem with trying to solve the Ripper murders on the back of newspaper reports. The St James Gazette, The Times and The Telegraph on the 1st of Sept all have her saying ' See what a jolly bonnet I've got now'. This is just one of many, many inconsistencies in the reporting of all of the murders. Picking apart what people said or didn't say according to what the newspapers wrote, edited, embellished, etc ultimately leads to confusion. We don't and won't ever know the truth, because we don't have the transcripts from the Coroner's Inquest. QED.
                      This ĎAh haí moment is a classic Hallieism. She takes Garethís comment as evidence of contemporary press inconsistency, whereas Iím pretty sure that what Gareth was referring to was a common error made by modern day authors/commentators.

                      As far as Iím aware, the contemporary press reported the comment consistently.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                        This ĎAh haí moment is a classic Hallieism. She takes Garethís comment as evidence of contemporary press inconsistency, whereas Iím pretty sure that what Gareth was referring to was a common error made by modern day authors/commentators.
                        Exactly so, Gary.
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen"
                        (F. Nietzsche)

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                          Exactly so, Gary.
                          How often do we find theoristsí mistakes and misunderstandings tending to support their theories?

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                          • #58
                            And, of course, Frances Coles not only had a new bonnet, but her old one too.
                            Thanks for your time,
                            dusty miller

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