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Interesting Lechmere Trivia

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  • Interesting Lechmere Trivia



    Charles Lechmere’s sister, Emily, died of phthisis in July, 1869 at 11, Mary Ann Street, St Geo E, while her stepfather Thomas Cross was still living. The informant recorded on Emily’s death cert was Mary Ann Marshall, a neighbour living at 21, Mary Ann Street who had been present at the death. The death was registered in the name of Emily Charlotte Lechmere.

    This is significant because it shows us that the name Lechmere was known by at least some of the family’s neighbours while Thomas Cross was still alive.

    I thought that was interesting enough, but when I looked at the Marshalls in more depth I found something even more interesting: in 1888 the family were living at 64, Berner Street. They were there in 1881 and 1891.

    So CAL had ex-neighbours, one of whom had possibly nursed his sister during her last illness, living a few doors away from Dutfield’s Yard in 1888. And those neighbours knew his real name was Charles Lechmere and, if it had been the case that he was known as Charles Cross while his stepfather was alive, they would have known that too.




  • #2
    B5639F9E-4CCD-43A3-AE35-39376017B938.jpeg


    Ed Stow posted this some time ago on another thread.

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    • #3
      8AD4729E-3577-4DD0-9B7D-6221AF229569.jpeg

      William Marshall the labourer in the Indigo warehouse was the husband of the Mary Ann Marshall who was present at the death of Emily Lechmere. So presumably he knew Charles Lechmere.


      Have I got that that right?

      Comment


      • #4
        From Ripper Wiki:



        William Marshall


        Witness at Elizabeth Stride's inquest.


        Born William Henry Marshall c.1841 in Dagenham, Essex. Married to Mary Ann (b.1844, Shadwell) with four children - William (b.1865), Jemima (b.1867), Henry (b.1872) and Mary Ann (b.1876).[1]

        A labourer living at 64 Berner Street who testified to seeing a woman he later recognised in the mortuary as Elizabeth Stride standing about three doors away from his house at about 11.45pm, 29th September 1888. She was apparently on the pavement opposite No.68, between Christian Street and Boyd Street and was with a man; the couple were talking quietly. Because there was no lamp nearby, Marshall could not see the man's face clearly, but was able to furnish the inquest with other particulars - he was middle-aged and stout, about 5ft 6in tall, respectably dressed in a small black cut-away coat and dark trousers. He was wearing a small peaked cap, "something like a sailor would wear". He had the appearance of a clerk. The woman was wearing a black jacket and skirt and a black crape bonnet, but did not see the flower that was pinned to the jacket.

        Marshall had been standing at his door since 11.30pm, his attention first being drawn towards the couple because the man was kissing the woman, otherwise, he did not take too much notice of them. He heard the man say "you would say anything but your prayers" and then they walked leisurely down the street. Neither appeared to be intoxicated.

        Marshall went inside at midnight and heard no more until a little after 1.00am when he heard the cry of "murder" being called in the street.[2]

        The description of the man suggests that he may be the same person seen with Stride by J. Best and John Gardner in the doorway of the Bricklayer's Arms at 11.00pm.[3]

        Marshall, his wife and youngest daughter moved from Berner Street to 185 Cable Street some time after 1891.[4]
        References


        I’m convinced this is the WM who was living at 24, Mary Ann Street in 1871. I’ve posted this here and on Casebook. If anyone has time to check it out, I’d appreciate it.

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        • #5
          Great spot Gary!

          Casts some doubts on my Cross theory and heavily dents the Lechmere mass murderer theory.
          Thanks for your time,
          dusty miller

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          • #6
            How so?

            Comment


            • #7
              Which or both?
              Thanks for your time,
              dusty miller

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Dusty Miller View Post
                Great spot Gary!

                Casts some doubts on my Cross theory and heavily dents the Lechmere mass murderer theory.
                It’s encouraging when you find interesting little tidbits.

                I’ll be interested to hear what Christer and perhaps Ed, if he hasn’t got lost on the Yorkshire Moors, have to say about these discoveries.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The Shoemaker at the Inquest

                  In brief:

                  At approximately 9.00 pm on Sunday 7th March, 1847, Robert Parry, a supernumerary police constable based at Hereford City police station, went out to patrol his beat in the city’s ‘H Division’. At two o’clock the following morning Inspector John Davies discovered Parry lying in a drunken stupor in Quay-Lane which lay on Parry’s beat. Parry was taken back to the station house and put into the ‘refractory cell’ to sleep it off. The next morning, when PC Botchett entered the refractory cell he found Parry dead.

                  At the inquest into Parry’s death it was suggested that a local shoe maker had given Parry 12 or 13 glasses of brandy and the possibility of a manslaughter charge against the shoemaker was raised.

                  The shoemaker denied having given Parry any brandy at all, but admitted giving him a certain amount of gin.

                  When the jury brought in their their verdict they reserved their censure for Inspector Davies for not having obtained medical assistance for Parry. The shoemaker wasn’t formally reprimanded, but his description of his own drinking exploits that night and his involvement in supplying Parry, a known drunkard, with alcohol while on duty can’t have done much for his reputation in the small Cathedral city.

                  Just over a month later the shoemaker went out of business, and shortly afterwards he seems to have abandoned his wife and two small children.

                  The shoemaker’s name was John Allen Lechmere. He was Charles Allen Lechmere’s father.




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                  • #10
                    You do not have permission to view this gallery.
                    This gallery has 2 photos.

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                    • #11
                      My apologies Gary for not seeing this sooner.
                      it is interesting indeed to see that Lechmere's father was involved in the death of a copper.
                      I think we see here, with those clippings which are somewhat hard to read (but I shall look then up myself), the split up of old pa and old ma Lechmere.

                      As for Marshall, that is also interesting.
                      That Lechmere's sister was called Lechmere while Thonad Cross was alive is of course a strong indicator that the children were called Lechmere and not Cross.
                      Oneof the suggestions is that Lechmere went to visit his daughter at Mary Anne Street on the night of the Double Event and overlaps went for a drink after in a local pub, before killing Stride. As he had lived in that vicinity for a big chunk of his life, he would obviously know people in the area abd perhaps have old drinking buddies there.
                      So having an d neighbour in Berner Street would not be a shock, if he knew what address they had moved to.
                      His close familiarity with the area and heightened nervousness might explain why Stride was not mutilated.

                      Incidentally, a possible close Kosminski connection to Berner Street was regarded as a bonus to his suspect status... but some regard a close Lechmere connection as a negative!
                      Such is life!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        And good finds Gary!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
                          My apologies Gary for not seeing this sooner.
                          it is interesting indeed to see that Lechmere's father was involved in the death of a copper.
                          I think we see here, with those clippings which are somewhat hard to read (but I shall look then up myself), the split up of old pa and old ma Lechmere.

                          As for Marshall, that is also interesting.
                          That Lechmere's sister was called Lechmere while Thonad Cross was alive is of course a strong indicator that the children were called Lechmere and not Cross.
                          Oneof the suggestions is that Lechmere went to visit his daughter at Mary Anne Street on the night of the Double Event and overlaps went for a drink after in a local pub, before killing Stride. As he had lived in that vicinity for a big chunk of his life, he would obviously know people in the area abd perhaps have old drinking buddies there.
                          So having an d neighbour in Berner Street would not be a shock, if he knew what address they had moved to.
                          His close familiarity with the area and heightened nervousness might explain why Stride was not mutilated.

                          Incidentally, a possible close Kosminski connection to Berner Street was regarded as a bonus to his suspect status... but some regard a close Lechmere connection as a negative!
                          Such is life!
                          Ed, if you click on the images a more legible version pops up.

                          Its a very interesting story. I think Pa may have overstretched himself financially by taking on larger premises in Hereford and perhaps his business suffered as a result of his involvement in the death of the PC. His assets were taken over by a bootmaker in St Martin’s Lane, not far from where CAL was born, which may explain the ‘Soho’ birth.

                          And the shop in St Peter’s Street, Hereford was taken over by a lady bonnet maker. Was Ma working for her in 1851?

                          All from my (very poor) memory. On this rare occasion I think I may have posted more about the subject on CB than on here. But I think it’s sitting in the middle of one of the lengthy Lechmere threads.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            If it's in the middle of a lengthy Lechmere thread then it's lost forever.
                            I suspect Old Pa Lechmere's business was ruined by drink! Maybe old ma turned him to it. She was very domineering after all.
                            from memory his brother was in the shoe business and lived in London.
                            I think again from memory that Thomas Cross's Hereford family were in the shoe business... as was Fosdike - the last husband's Old Ma. She liked a cobbler.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
                              If it's in the middle of a lengthy Lechmere thread then it's lost forever.
                              I suspect Old Pa Lechmere's business was ruined by drink! Maybe old ma turned him to it. She was very domineering after all.
                              from memory his brother was in the shoe business and lived in London.
                              I think again from memory that Thomas Cross's Hereford family were in the shoe business... as was Fosdike - the last husband's Old Ma. She liked a cobbler.
                              Good point about Cross’s dad being a shoemaker. I’d like to know when young TC caught Ma’s eye. He can’t have been much out of his teens - if he was out of them at all. Also, did he move to London to join the Met before he hooked up with her? In Archer Clive she appears to have had a contact who had a say in who got police jobs in Hereford. I’m leaning towards their leaving Hereford together to avoid any scandal that might have arisen as a result of their age difference and the possibility of JAL still being alive. If that had been the case, it might explain why CAL did not give both his real name and that of his ‘stepfather’ when appearing at the two inquests.

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