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Interesting Lechmere Trivia

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  • Edward Stow
    replied
    My guess is that Lechmere went to work first (eg 4am) explained he had to attend the inquest or that he had to make a statement about the matter to the police, and went back to do just that, possibly via Commercial Street Police Station.
    Possibly he didnt anticipate being sent from the police station to the inquest - for about 10 am.
    a few hours to play with but he didnt go home to change.
    Maybe he told his foreman at Pickfords that he was known locally as Cross - maybe he had pulled that one before.
    There are many possibilities.
    But he chose to withhold Lechmere and the police can't have followed him up.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Caroline Brown View Post

    I would assume Pickfords might have learned about it anyway, Ed, if he failed to ask permission.

    "Oh look, it's Charlie Cross in his work clothes, telling the inquest how he was on his way to work at Pickfords when he discovered the murdered woman, and showing up that slow witted copper, PC Mizzin Link."

    Love,

    Caz
    X
    Mizzin Link - love it!

    It’s almost as funny as Lechmete.

    How about PC Vain who left his cape in the knacker’s yard because he didn’t want it to get wet?

    Or PC Kneel who got close enough to Prolly to see her blood running?

    Come back Robert - all is forgiven!

    Leave a comment:


  • Caroline Brown
    replied
    Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
    The rent collector would have known his real/true name as well.
    I wonder when Lechmete informed his employers that he was attending the inquest.
    I would assume Pickfords might have learned about it anyway, Ed, if he failed to ask permission.

    "Oh look, it's Charlie Cross in his work clothes, telling the inquest how he was on his way to work at Pickfords when he discovered the murdered woman, and showing up that slow witted copper, PC Mizzin Link."

    Love,

    Caz
    X

    Leave a comment:


  • Caroline Brown
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

    Hi Caz,

    Why would it have been an issue for Pickfords if he’d revealed that his real name was Lechmere, but he went by his stepfather’s name of Cross? The ever helpful Lord O and others have provided us with enough examples of people doing just that for us to assess the zeitgeist on the matter.

    Why might CAL have been out of step with others who found themselves in his position? Did he fail to grasp the concept of a ‘real/proper’ name that should be disclosed to the authorities? Or perhaps it was just coroners whom he thought had no right to know his real name.

    Given that his kids were registered at school as Lechmere it’s highly likely that the neighbours knew that name. Perhaps they were also aware of the Cross name.

    Gaz
    Hi Gaz,

    Maybe it wouldn't have been an 'issue' for Pickfords, but Lechmere, not knowing either way, may simply have preferred not to complicate things, if he had previously only given his name as Cross after that child was killed by his works vehicle.

    It's clear that the authorities accepted the ID he gave them, but could have checked with his family and workplace, if they had cause to do so, and found he was officially a Lechmere, along with the wife and kids. So it was merely a suggestion I had that he could have been thinking as an employee, temporarily away from the day job, when he gave his name as Cross.

    Love,

    Caz
    X

    Leave a comment:


  • Edward Stow
    replied
    Unfortunately Thomas Cross's Police joining records are not available so we can get no hint there. But initially he would have lived in the section house and seems to have married from there. And presumably during his training they wouldn't be together either. And I think any sort of relationship would have been frowned upon by the Met. So if they were somehow an item at that early stage it must have remained a secret and Old Ma must have fended for herself for a while.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    I have to say that RJ’s discovery of TC’s dad rescuing people from the fire is excellent. Old man Cross was something of a local hero it would seem. Why would his son have had to move to London to get a job as a PC - especially if he was in a socially acceptable relationship with poor, abandoned Maria with her connection to the Clive family.

    To me the most likely answer is that the relationship wasn’t acceptable in the circles in which Maria moved. The age gap and the possibility (or actual knowledge) that JAL wasn’t deceased would explain why the couple decamped to London and settled in one London’s most notorious areas - Tiger Bay.

    Leave a comment:


  • Edward Stow
    replied
    The rent collector would have known his real/true name as well.
    I wonder when Lechmete informed his employers that he was attending the inquest.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Caroline Brown View Post
    Hi Guys,

    I'm wondering if you may be reading too much into Lechmere only giving his name as Cross at the Nichols inquest.

    If this was the same Charlie Cross who was involved in the 1876 [?] accident in which a child was killed, he naturally appeared as a Pickfords employee on that occasion, and Pickfords may onlyhave known him by that name.

    He'd have needed time off work to appear at the Nichols inquest, so Pickfords would again be aware of the situation. For practical reasons, if he had never used his official name while working for Pickfords, it would have made sense for him to attend as Charles Allen Cross, carman at Pickfords, who was on his way there when he discovered the deceased. Might he not have been reluctant to reveal, after all that time as an employee, that he actually went by two names, one for work and one for everything else? Why create a mystery for his employers to ponder, if there was no need and nothing for them to worry about?

    Love,

    Caz
    X
    Hi Caz,

    Why would it have been an issue for Pickfords if he’d revealed that his real name was Lechmere, but he went by his stepfather’s name of Cross? The ever helpful Lord O and others have provided us with enough examples of people doing just that for us to assess the zeitgeist on the matter.

    Why might CAL have been out of step with others who found themselves in his position? Did he fail to grasp the concept of a ‘real/proper’ name that should be disclosed to the authorities? Or perhaps it was just coroners whom he thought had no right to know his real name.

    Given that his kids were registered at school as Lechmere it’s highly likely that the neighbours knew that name. Perhaps they were also aware of the Cross name.

    Gaz

    Leave a comment:


  • Caroline Brown
    replied
    Hi Guys,

    I'm wondering if you may be reading too much into Lechmere only giving his name as Cross at the Nichols inquest.

    If this was the same Charlie Cross who was involved in the 1876 [?] accident in which a child was killed, he naturally appeared as a Pickfords employee on that occasion, and Pickfords may onlyhave known him by that name.

    He'd have needed time off work to appear at the Nichols inquest, so Pickfords would again be aware of the situation. For practical reasons, if he had never used his official name while working for Pickfords, it would have made sense for him to attend as Charles Allen Cross, carman at Pickfords, who was on his way there when he discovered the deceased. Might he not have been reluctant to reveal, after all that time as an employee, that he actually went by two names, one for work and one for everything else? Why create a mystery for his employers to ponder, if there was no need and nothing for them to worry about?

    Love,

    Caz
    X

    Leave a comment:


  • Edward Stow
    replied
    And did CAL ponder this while watching young PC Thomas Cross die by inches at Mary Ann Street.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
    Of course it's nothing like Maria, who must have knowingly lied.

    I don't think CAL had a casual attitude towards anything! Whether he was JtR or not.
    The withholding of Lechmere is, however you cut it, odd.

    Do you think old ma brought him up on the story about how his dad had killed a copper through drink and got away with it?
    That’s an interesting question. I wonder what picture of JAL she presented to her children. Did she gloss over his failings? Did she exaggerate them?

    Leave a comment:


  • Edward Stow
    replied
    Of course it's nothing like Maria, who must have knowingly lied.

    I don't think CAL had a casual attitude towards anything! Whether he was JtR or not.
    The withholding of Lechmere is, however you cut it, odd.

    Do you think old ma brought him up on the story about how his dad had killed a copper through drink and got away with it?

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    RJ neglected to mention that Caroline Morant had made repeated requests for information about her husband to the India Office and had received none.

    Is that comparable to Maria?

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
    Gary
    Even if CAL was possibly commonly known as Cross at Pickfords in every other walk of his life, he was known as Lechmere for sure.
    I would suggest that most people then and now self identify by their personal life, not their work life. His work at Pickfords was transitory. Within a few years he had businesses in the name of Lechmere - whike he was still (presumably) working at Pickfords.
    So we would expect him to disclose both names, unless you feel he had a very casual attitude towards names.

    Leave a comment:


  • Edward Stow
    replied
    Gary
    Even if CAL was possibly commonly known as Cross at Pickfords in every other walk of his life, he was known as Lechmere for sure.
    I would suggest that most people then and now self identify by their personal life, not their work life. His work at Pickfords was transitory. Within a few years he had businesses in the name of Lechmere - while he was still (presumably) working at Pickfords.

    Leave a comment:

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