Mary Ann's Background

[Jose Oranto]

Jose gives EJ’s DOB in bold type, so he probably has the cert.

mmm... maybe I have taken credit for something that is not mine...?? I've been looking for an hour and I can't find the original source for Edward John, could it be that I found it at Shelden's? I have birth records for Percy (1868) and Alice (1870), both born at 131 Trafalgar Street

Re-editing...

[Chris Phillips]

mmm... maybe I have taken credit for something that is not mine...?? I've been looking for an hour and I can't find the original source for Edward John, could it be that I found it at Shelden's? I have birth records for Percy (1868) and Alice (1870), both born at 131 Trafalgar Street

Re-editing...

Thanks. That is reassuring in a way, because I certainly can't find a registration of the birth of an Edward John born on 4 July 1866.

A look at Shelden's books explains things. In his original book he says Edward John was born in Camberwell in 1865 or 1866, which is what the 1881 census indicates. In the revised edition, he adds a date of birth, and the information that both Edward John and Percy George were baptised on 9 August 1868 at St Peter's, Walworth. Rubenhold probably looked at the baptism entries too, but wrongly assumed that the address was where both births took place, whereas of course it was the address of the family at the time of the baptisms:

EdwardJohnNicholsBaptism1868.jpg

[Gary Barnett]

Thanks. That is reassuring in a way, because I certainly can't find a registration of the birth of an Edward John born on 4 July 1866.

A look at Shelden's books explains things. In his original book he says Edward John was born in Camberwell in 1865 or 1866, which is what the 1881 census indicates. In the revised edition, he adds a date of birth, and the information that both Edward John and Percy George were baptised on 9 August 1868 at St Peter's, Walworth. Rubenhold probably looked at the baptism entries too, but wrongly assumed that the address was where both births took place, whereas of course it was the address of the family at the time of the baptisms:

EdwardJohnNicholsBaptism1868.jpg

There was an EJN who was born in Camberwell in 1866, but his mother’s maiden name was Clifford.

[Chris Phillips]

And finally, Rubenhold acknowledges Neal and Jenni Shelden for the discovery of the eldest son, William Edward Walker Nichols (b. 17 December 1864). A bit later she gives a cryptic clue about his death - she says he "failed to live more than a year and nine months". That indicates he would have died in the 3rd or 4th quarter of 1866, and therefore presumably south of the river.

Finally, with the help of that clue, here is his death registration, with a change of spelling of the surname and with his first two given names swapped round:
NICHOLLS, EDWARD WILLIAM WALKER [aged] 2
GRO Reference: 1866 D Quarter in NEWINGTON Volume 01D Page 163

[Chris Phillips]

All of which was well known to the person who wrote this page on the "Find a Grave" website for his burial at the City of London and Tower Hamlets Cemetery!
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...walker-nichols

It includes images of his entries in the baptism and burial registers. The latter indicates that the Nicholses were at Trafalgar Street by that time.

(Edit: Judging by the date of burial, the age given is wrong - he was actually a year and eleven months old.)

[Gary Barnett]

And finally, Rubenhold acknowledges Neal and Jenni Shelden for the discovery of the eldest son, William Edward Walker Nichols (b. 17 December 1864). A bit later she gives a cryptic clue about his death - she says he "failed to live more than a year and nine months". That indicates he would have died in the 3rd or 4th quarter of 1866, and therefore presumably south of the river.

Finally, with the help of that clue, here is his death registration, with a change of spelling of the surname and with his first two given names swapped round:
NICHOLLS, EDWARD WILLIAM WALKER [aged] 2
GRO Reference: 1866 D Quarter in NEWINGTON Volume 01D Page 163

“failed to live more than a year and nine months" is a strange way of putting it. It suggests she only knew the quarter in which the death occurred. But if the death was registered in the 4th quarter of 1866, he could have been 2 when he died.

If no one else has it, I’ll order a PDF of the cert.

[Chris Phillips]

“failed to live more than a year and nine months" is a strange way of putting it. It suggests she only knew the quarter in which the death occurred. But if the death was registered in the 4th quarter of 1866, he could have been 2 when he died.

If no one else has it, I’ll order a PDF of the cert.

That age is the one given in the burial register (and probably on the death certificate too), but is obviously a bit wrong. So whatever the source was, it would also have given the date of death or burial.

Probably the Sheldens gave her details of the death/burial as well as the birth.

[Gary Barnett]

That age is the one given in the burial register (and probably on the death certificate too), but is obviously a bit wrong. So whatever the source was, it would also have given the date of death or burial.

Probably the Sheldens gave her details of the death/burial as well as the birth.

The GRO index says ‘2’.

[Chris Phillips]

The GRO index says ‘2’.

You're right, of course - silly of me. The death certificate must have said the same. Not that 2 is quite correct either, as the burial was on the 1 December, before his birthday.

[Gary Barnett]

I’ve ordered the PDF for the sake of clarity. When it arrives in a week or so, I’ll post it here.

[Jose Oranto]

I’ve ordered the PDF for the sake of clarity. When it arrives in a week or so, I’ll post it here.

Thank you very much Chris and Gary, looking forward to see that PDF. For now I will italicize that part of the text

[Debra Arif]

...

Rubenhold probably looked at the baptism entries too, but wrongly assumed that the address was where both births took place, whereas of course it was the address of the family at the time of the baptisms:

Rubenhold seems to do that often.
There is no birth registration for Thomas Laurence Conway to find a birth certificate, only a Roman Catholic baptism that I found that gave the date of his birth, yet Rubenhold was able to say the exact address he was born at. As she doesn't give a date of birth it is unlikely she had found the birth registration either.

Good spot about the death of William Edward Walker Nicholls. I know Mark Ripper found his birth originally (Neil Bell uses Mark's pen name of Oldridge) but I don't know who found the burial in Kensington.

[Debra Arif]

I am doubtful about that burial in Kensington. Here is the entry from Ancestry (the date given is 17 July for the burial, not 17 June for the death):



Although the age is about right, there is only one given name, and it's a different part of London from the family's other locations.

There is the birth of a William Nichols registered at Kensington in the first quarter of 1865 which could match this burial as regards age. The GRO index gives the mother's maiden name as Howe. This matches up to entries for a George Nichols and an Ann Howe in the index of marriages for the fourth quarter of 1860 at Kensington, and in turn with the entry below from the 1871 census (the two youngest children match birth registrations with mother's maiden name How or Howe, though I have problems with the others). There is a gap where the William born in 1865 would be, consistent with his having died. The address is in the same street as the one in the burial register, and only two numbers away. So I think the burial entry is for the son of George Nichols and Ann, not Mary Ann's son William:

I just checked and thankfully we have the correct date of his death in the new A to Z! I wasn't at my computer earlier and only had Neil's book to hand as the most recent and recalling there was something in there, not thinking the death date in that book would be incorrect.

[Debra Arif]

Neal Shelden put a few details about Edward John and Percy on this thread, if it helps.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-victims/mary-ann-polly-nichols/17375-new-mary-ann-nichols-family-information

I'm intrigued what poor law record I saw on SPE's Facebook page back then. I have a settlement record for Mary Ann Nicholls but it doesn't mention a step-father, which is apparently what the document I linked to (link no longer works) was about.

[Gary Barnett]

Excellent work Jose.

.

The paragraph below answers the 'when'

"Author M.W. Oldridge has located another child, William Edward Walker, who was Nichols' first-born child, born on 17 December 1864, sadly dying six months later, on 17 June 1865, St Brides, Fleet Street, Baptism Register, 8 January 1865 & West Kensington St Mary Burial Register, 1865."
Capturing Jack the Ripper by Bell, Neil R. A

Debs,

The St Bride’s, Fleet Street reference is rather odd.

Am I right in thinking you (A-Z) have the death certificate for William?

Gary