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The French Lady Uncovered ?

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  • Hi San Fran, That is why I mentioned the Lizzie Williams from "The Era" theatrical and entertainment newspaper.
    Anna there is a lot about Mary Ann Williams in Cardiff who seemed to get very stroppy when drunk and arrested many times, One report said she was a prostitute and at that time was drinking in Bute street I will put that on in a moment.

    I didn't find her after 1885, did you? There is also a widow Mary Ann Williams too, but dont think she was from Cardiff. See the rowdy one below
    Pat...
    Attached Files

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    • Another report but this one is in 1877 so would have to be older that Mary Kelly?....Pat
      Attached Files

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      • Rosalie Ochse’s husband has some French theatre/cabaret links through marriage. His cousin married the sister of Gabriel Astruc, the theatre impresario, who was friends with Erik Satie, the composer, and he worked for music publisher Wilhelm Enoch. But the marriage was in 1906 so too late. They might have known each other before that.

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        • Originally posted by Pat Marshall View Post
          I don't know about the Williams chap turning up and being mary's father? Have you got a source for that Anna ? I would love to know what that was about...
          I am glad you are scouring the welsh press. I feel something might turn up there. The question is why and how did she go to London. It was said she had a friend south of the river or was that a sister?

          I will see if I can find anything on the Williams family (thats a joke in Wales)
          Pat...
          Debra recently refreshed our knowledge about the mortuary attendant who was interviewed in the twentieth century who said Mary's father had shown up, he was a sailor named Williams. I think that is all any of us know about that. (I have wondered at times if people did not claim relationship to some of JtR's victims just so they could view the ghastly remains. I have wondered this about Hutchinson specifically though our discussions here about police interrogation procedures have given me a lot more to think about.)

          In another post you asked about finding a name after 1885. My searches tend to run from 1880-85 because I am trying to identify Mary or her cousin(s) prior to her coming to London. I have extended other searches up to 1895 or even 1900, especially in my study of the Halket Street Kellies, and not found much.

          Brothels were a hot topic in the early 80s and intense legal action was brought down. I have a theory that Mary went to London because things got rough in Cardiff. Maybe her cousin(s) went to prison or something.

          We have the loose statement that Mary went to visit a friend in the same state she was (unfortunate?), in the Elephant and Castle district. We got into a deeper discussion about that quite awhile ago. That statement could be correct as written or it could mean something else. There was quite a business in pick-pocketing and similar criminal activity attached to the ride to Elephant and Castle and whatever was there, an amusement destination or whatever.
          The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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          • Here are two clips about Mary Ann Williams from Cardiff. I assume these clips cover two different women. The one describing her as a "lady" is from 1882. They don't really belong on this thread and I can easily move them to one of my Cardiff brothel threads.

            OH! I see what got my attention to Mary Ann Williams. She dressed like a "lady" and had a witness in Catherine Poole who had recently returned from London! This is actually a case from Newport, not Cardiff. Interestingly, Williams paid the railway ticket for Catherine Poole to return and be a witness.This sounded like a bit more organised operation and is there a connection to London with girls going back and forth? Maybe or maybe not. Also note the apparent size of the operation and the ability for this Mary Ann to post 50 pounds!!! In a decade when the likes of Annie and Polly spent cold nights on the streets for lack of 4 pennies!!!!!

            What is the chance that Mary Jane Kelly just decided to go to London circa 1884? If she was born in Ireland, raised in Carmarthenshire and ended up in Cardiff, a trip to London would have been a huge undertaking! I also obsess over Mary's "costly dresses". These apparently belonged to Mary and were hers to claim so it is unlikely she was a dress boarder or something similar. I do not believe they were brothel frocks and I believe one may have been black silk which seemed to be a quality investment for some women at that time. (John McCarthy's wife, as a teen, had stolen money from her father and among other items had bought for herself was a black silk dress. "Ripperologist", awhile back.)

            Did a brothel operation in Cardiff send MJK to London and provide some basic equipment? I have done a lot of fruitless searching for a number of years and I feel the Cardiff (Swansea and Newport) brothel world may yield the best results. Fortunately for us because of legal actions and changes in the laws, the South Wales brothel industry was ripped wide open in the early 80s, with names and particulars in the papers. Another thought about the "costly dresses" being conservative outfits is that there was a big crackdown on prostitution in the 1880s so I would suppose larger businesses strove to provide nicely dressed escorts rather than overly decorated girls who would draw unwanted attention.

            When I first found this Mary Ann Williams article I thought the name Catherine Poole was a name from Ripperology but going back through the best search engines, I cannot find it so I must be wrong. It might be interesting to try to track Catherine Poole through London and back and forth to Wales. I did search the name through the Welsh papers, even extending the time period to 1875-1886 but the name only comes up in this case, early July, 1882.
            Attached Files
            The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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            • Other than the marriage record, all I've found so far on Rosalie's husband Simon Bernstein are his assessments in the Westminster Rate Books. From 1862 to 1864 (the year he died), he's listed at 164 Strand.

              It appears from the newspaper archives that there was an apothecary place at that address. After his death, it appears Rosalie's sister's husband, Henry Swaebe turned it into a Cigar and Tobacco store. Snippet views below.

              SIR J. MURRAY’S PATENTS. 1817 & 1860
              ... furnish moat safe and pleasing saline drinks in fevers. Buttles, double size and strength, with Family Jars an Books, at 164, Strand, London, and all chief agents. ...


              Published: Friday 22 August 1862
              Newspaper: Durham County Advertiser
              County: Durham, England

              TO LICENSED VICTUALLERS AND HOTEL PROPRIETORS
              Foreign Cigars at equally Low Prices. HENRY SWAEBE, Tobacco and Cigar Manufacturer. 164. Strand, W.C. * * No connection with any other person the same name and trade. ...

              Published: Friday 12 July 1867
              Newspaper: Morning Advertiser
              County: London, England

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              • Simon Bernstein was assaulted in 1863. At least one of three articles describes him as a cigar merchant.

                Mr. Tyrwhitt, with assaulting Mr. Simon Bernstein, j merchant, HO. Strand, Mr. Edward Lewis, Great Marlborough ..
                ... Mr. Tyrwhitt, with assaulting Mr. Simon Bernstein, j merchant, HO. Strand, Mr. Edward Lewis, Great Marlborough-street, was for the complainant, and Mr. Graham for the defence. The complainant ..... sworn, said—ln consequence information given called ...


                Published: Thursday 04 June 1863
                Newspaper: Morning Advertiser
                County: London, England

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                • Friday, Dec 09, 1859 The Times

                  Theres a bit about Mrs Bernstein in here. It mentions a company Davidson and Pfahl, was that not her maiden name?
                  Pat
                  Attached Files

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                  • Originally Posted by Pat Marshall View Post
                    Theres a bit about Mrs Bernstein in here. It mentions a company Davidson and Pfahl, was that not her maiden name?
                    Pat
                    Yes, Pat. Pfahl was her maiden name. I think her late father was a merchant. He is recorded as dying in 1877 so it could have been his company in 1859 or just named after him.

                    Rosalie's sister, Julie, appears to have reached the heights of "court milliner". She's all over the "news for the ladies".

                    The Morning Post from London, on July 17, 1884 · 7 - Newspapers.com
                    www.newspapers.com/newspage/409974136/

                    MADAME JULIE SWAEBE, Court Dressmaker, 9, New Burlington-street, Under the Patronage of Royalty, the Nobility, and Gentry. A Large and Choice ...
                    She designed/supplied the dress for a portrait of the Dutchess of Bedford.

                    http://lafayette.org.uk/bed1693e.html

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                    • Originally posted by Pat Marshall View Post
                      Theres a bit about Mrs Bernstein in here. It mentions a company Davidson and Pfahl, was that not her maiden name?
                      Pat
                      DAVIDSON, Samuel, It Adolph Kanter (Davidson, Pfahl, & Co.), Importers of Foreign Merchandise, 14a St. Mary Axe.

                      Partner Adolph Kanter's wife was Elise ne. Pfahl. She was Rosalie's sister, Elisabeth. I don't think they moved to England.

                      Myheritage even has a picture.

                      https://www.myheritage.com/search-re...origin=profile

                      Here's their marriage record:

                      Elisabeth Pfahl


                      mentioned in the record of Adolph Kanter and Elisabeth Pfahl
                      Name Adolph Kanter
                      Spouse's Name Elisabeth Pfahl
                      Event Date 03 Jun 1857
                      Event Place Duesseldorf Stadt, Rheinland, Prussia
                      Father's Name Julius Kanter
                      Mother's Name Pauline Porchardt
                      Spouse's Father's Name Samuel Pfahl
                      Spouse's Mother's Name Babetta Kaufmann

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                      • During the Thistlethwaite case in 1878, Rosalie Bernstein was actually called Mrs. Swaebe.

                        Brother-in-law, Henry Swaebe, was the "nominal plaintiff" but Rosalie I believe was the main claimant.

                        One newspaper came down hard against the plaintiffs:

                        The Somerset County Gazette. BRISTOL EXPRESS AND DEVONSHIRE NEWS
                        ... some foreign toil to it, dressmakers who are known to have nothing English in their character, and have such names as Swaebe or Rosalie, amass fortunes so quickly that each stitch made by their assistants seems to be worth at least a shilling.
                        Published: Saturday 13 April 1878
                        Newspaper: Somerset County Gazette
                        County: Somerset, England

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                        • MADAME JULIE SWAEBE, Court Dressmaker, 9, New Burlington-street, Under the Patronage of Royalty, the Nobility, and Gentry.
                          The Royal patron was German royalty. HGDH Princess Leiningen.

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                          • Wickedest Old Woman

                            Here’s a Comic Journal Article about Rosalie. Even here she is referred to as Henry Swaebe’s wife.



                            Judy, Or The London Serio-Comic Journal, Vol. 22, 1878.

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                            • I finally found a singer/showman in the family.

                              Daniel Ben Moya-Swaebe

                              The step son of the father-in-law of Rosalie’s brother Joe and sister Julia, Daniel is listed as a “singer” (?) in the 1861 England census, going by the name Daniel S Vernon.

                              He died in Ohio in 1908 where he was a “showman”.

                              https://jacobstree.co.uk/tngjacobs/g...=I1478&tree=T1

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                              • Originally posted by San Fran View Post
                                Here’s a Comic Journal Article about Rosalie. Even here she is referred to as Henry Swaebe’s wife.

                                Judy, Or The London Serio-Comic Journal, Vol. 22, 1878.
                                The Wickedest Old Lady Semi Comic article on Rosalie appeared in 1878 probably after the Thistlethwayte Case.

                                Thistlethwayte gave his wife a £500 credit limit to go shopping and she ended up racking up a £30000 bill at Rosalie’s shop. Rosalie lost the case when the court protected the right of the husband not to have his wife being taken advantage of. Rosalie was comedically demonized because of it.

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