The French Lady Uncovered ?

[Debra Arif]

Yes, I remember we discussed it subsequently and there were very strong opinions against the idea.

It makes perfect sense to me, particularly if it had its origins during Kelly’s West End phase.

It still does to me too. I put it in the pffff file...it gets fuller everyday.

[Markus Aurelius Franzoi]

Charles and Rosalie's house was "dismantled" in the Regent's Park Explosion of 1874.

Another one, who was hit hard by the explosion of the barge going up the Regent's Canal, was painter Alma Tadema.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Vm5dAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA101&lpg=RA1-PA101&dq=north+house+dismantled+%22ochse%22&source=bl&ots=LmRMtZdWwX&sig=rtiXaLAVZpfE4OQa5gBRTIrWwS4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjHq-z-ksvfAhXMoYMKHRIvDpcQ6AEwCHoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=north%20house%20dismantled%20%22ochse%22&f=false

[Anna Morris]

Charles and Rosalie's house was "dismantled" in the Regent's Park Explosion of 1874.

Another one, who was hit hard by the explosion of the barge going up the Regent's Canal, was painter Alma Tadema.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Vm5...hse%22&f=false

The "mansion of Charles Ochse." Interesting.

[Markus Aurelius Franzoi]

The "mansion of Charles Ochse." Interesting.

And the mansion was near North Gate Bridge.

Could that have been mistaken for Knightsbridge?

[Anna Morris]

And the mansion was near North Gate Bridge.

Could that have been mistaken for Knightsbridge?

I am the last one to ask about London geography. I believe the original information was, "near Knightsbridge." That probably makes sense all the way around.

If you really think about what Mrs. P. had to say, it sounds to me like she KNEW what she related, not that Mary had told her. Parts that Mary did tell her, such as Mary having a child, Mrs. P. defined by saying Mary had told her. This once again calls to mind whether Mrs. P. worked for Rosalie on occasion and if Anna Felix/Morgenstern, the young seamstress, was apprenticed to or working for Rosalie's family.

Mrs. P. as I recall was a "milliner" in the census. I figure in the East End that MUST mean she worked with hats though maybe she made fancy dresses for the girls in the dock area who wanted to advertise themselves. That is a study in itself. In old literature I have many times clearly seen "milliner" = hats but in Victorian London it seems to more often mean dealer in luxury goods, the literal "Milan-er" at the end of the Silk Road.

So we need to be alert to Mrs. P. and Anna in connection with Rosalie's extended business.

[Markus Aurelius Franzoi]

I believe the Press referred to the French lady as residing "in Knightsbridge" and "in the neighborhood of Knightsbridge".

I looked at all the press references to "the neighborhood of Knightsbridge" and they all meant Knighstbridge proper. I could find no usage of "near Knightsbridge" so it wasn't used as a landmark.

I think Mrs. P got all her information from Mary Kelly and Elizabeth Boekee. That doesn't mean she didn't work with or know Rosalie (Mrs. Boekee did) but, with Rosalie being a minor celebrity and all with highly respectable associations, someone would have been covering up for her.

[Anna Morris]

I believe the Press referred to the French lady as residing "in Knightsbridge" and "in the neighborhood of Knightsbridge".

I looked at all the press references to "the neighborhood of Knightsbridge" and they all meant Knighstbridge proper. I could find no usage of "near Knightsbridge" so it wasn't used as a landmark.

I think Mrs. P got all her information from Mary Kelly and Elizabeth Boekee. That doesn't mean she didn't work with or know Rosalie (Mrs. Boekee did) but, with Rosalie being a minor celebrity and all with highly respectable associations, someone would have been covering up for her.

In American English, "the neighborhood of _____" could = near to. I see you are taking it more literal which is probably more correct.

I still can't figure out Rosalie. She may have had "highly respectable associations," but it was also plainly written in the papers, more than once, that Rosalie consorted with prostitutes, including walking out with them and attending parties with them.

THIS in an age when Queen Victoria refused to receive Lady Florence, the wife of Sir Samuel Baker, because the Queen believed, rightly, that Sam and Florence had cohabited prior to marriage!

The Queen was trying to set the moral tone, though the Prince of Wales might have been weakening it at the same time. Even so, Rosalie sounds anything but respectable in the many court cases, splashed through the papers in an age when a decent woman only had her name in the papers three times in her life; birth, marriage and death!

[Markus Aurelius Franzoi]

I still can't figure out Rosalie. She may have had "highly respectable associations," but it was also plainly written in the papers, more than once, that Rosalie consorted with prostitutes, including walking out with them and attending parties with them.... Rosalie sounds anything but respectable in the many court cases, splashed through the papers in an age when a decent woman only had her name in the papers three times in her life; birth, marriage and death!

If Mary came to London "respectable" and met her "downfall" there, (or shall we say, failed to find a wealthy and generous gentleman steady patron causing her to resort to a revolving door of guys, some of whom she stuck too but then pushed out) instead of becoming a prostitute in Wales or wherever, and she had family in the West End, then she wouldn't have wanted to carry on in the same neighorhood as her family members. She would have preferred the "relative" anonymity or "privacy" of the East End. Especially if her alleged "cousin who led her into the life" was one of them. The cousin certainly wouldn't want to carry on where she could run into her family.

And with Jewish West End connections, she'd likely still have connections in the East. Her real landlord at Millers Court appears to be a West End Jewish man. Could that be why her rent was in arrears?

[Gary Barnett]

If Mary came to London "respectable" and met her "downfall" there, (or shall we say, failed to find a wealthy and generous gentleman steady patron causing her to resort to a revolving door of guys, some of whom she stuck too but then pushed out) instead of becoming a prostitute in Wales or wherever, and she had family in the West End, then she wouldn't have wanted to carry on in the same neighorhood as her family members. She would have preferred the "relative" anonymity or "privacy" of the East End. Especially if her alleged "cousin who led her into the life" was one of them. The cousin certainly wouldn't want to carry on where she could run into her family.

And with Jewish West End connections, she'd likely still have connections in the East. Her real landlord at Millers Court appears to be a West End Jewish man. Could that be why her rent was in arrears?

SF,

Abraham Barnett was seemingly the freeholder of a number of properties in Dorset Street. McCarthy was his tenant, but I think it highly unlikely that the two had a personal connection. The likelihood of any of the hundreds of short-term tenants to whom McCarthy sublet having any connection to Barnett is beyond remote.

Gary

[Anna Morris]

I doubt Mary Kelly arrived in London in a totally respectable state. She told Barnett--apparently many times--about her cousin in Cardiff. It seems to me if she could have completely blamed the French woman, a foreigner, she would have done in what she told Joe.

Perhaps Mary meant to start new in London and fell back into old ways. It is also possible that she had a job lined up when she went to London but the job fell through.

In the East End I don't think we can really say she was involved with the Jews. We are now certain "Morganstone" was Catholic and all her other contacts seemed to be British and Christian.

At least in Cardiff, property owners kept as much distance as possible from the action when they rented, usually to a man, who put a, usually younger woman, in charge of the "rooming house" where there were many parties and beds rented by the hour. About 1882 there was a lot of grumbling in legislative bodies about how to punish the actual property owners for what went on in the rentals. I would assume London real estate worked the same way.

An interesting avenue of research would be how and when Abraham Barnett purchased the properties. How did he make his money? How much land did he own? How long had he owned it? Considering a number of the East End buildings were once built for specific purposes, for instance silk weavers or sugar bakers, how did the buildings transition from those purposes to slum dwellings?

[Markus Aurelius Franzoi]

Mary shouldn't have blamed the "French lady" if she'd already fallen from "grace" years earlier in Cardiff. Why blame her at all?

She never did mention the "French lady" specifically to Joe, as far as we know, did she? I wonder why.

I'm sure the Jews in Whitechapel and the East End were less integrated so there'd be little chance of Mary having dealings with them there. Does that mean she didn't have connections or an ace in the hole she couldn't pull out in an emergency?... I'm not saying she did though.

[Anna Morris]

Mary shouldn't have blamed the "French lady" if she'd already fallen from "grace" years earlier in Cardiff. Why blame her at all?

She never did mention the "French lady" specifically to Joe, as far as we know, did she? I wonder why.

I'm sure the Jews in Whitechapel and the East End were less integrated so there'd be little chance of Mary having dealings with them there. Does that mean she didn't have connections or an ace in the hole she couldn't pull out in an emergency?... I'm not saying she did though.

If the French lady withheld her belongings, there is room for blame.

Mary's story was that she fell into the bad life with a cousin in Cardiff. That does not mean that she never intended to "go straight" as we say in the U.S. Despite "prostitute" on her death certificate, I don't think Mary ever planned to be a career prostitute. I think she wanted a long(er) term relationship with a man. If her story is true, she was married, cohabited with Joe Flemming, spent about 18 months with Joe Barnett. If there is any truth in his claim that she was not on the street while she lived with him, then she obviously wanted something better.

So, if she went to London around age 18 to 20, expecting a fresh start as a lady's maid in France or something and found out she was decoyed into bordellos, there is plenty of blame for the French lady.

Sure, we can't argue that the French lady caused Mary's original downfall or stole her virginity, but if Mary intended a fresh start in London or France and ended up in a bad situation, the French lady bears guilt.

I never felt Mary blamed anyone though Joe blamed the cousin. I imagine Mary wanted to have more money and more nice things than she was able to get with whatever low paying jobs she found. So she augmented her income along with her cousin. Lots of girls have done that. IMO Mary's real downfall was drinking which she probably started doing abusively because of the "bad life."

[Markus Aurelius Franzoi]

Rosalie’s husband Charles Ochse is definitely related to leading international shell buyer Albert Ochse. They’re cousins. First cousins. Their respective fathers Abraham and Wolfgang were brothers.

https://www.geni.com/people/Albert-O...00043078486391

It’s pretty obvious already to me that it’s possible to link Rosalie with Edmund Joseph Bellord. Two solicitor sons and now a cousin who works nearby. This directory which goes unit by unit like a census has them very close on the same page. PS From the date in the middle of the page, the directory is circa 1898.

http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/d.../6692/download

[Anna Morris]

This clipping from the "Flintshire Observer Mining Journal", 4 July, 1889, may or may not fit here. This short clip is about English girls or women being lured to France during an Exhibition.

[Anna Morris]

adding another thought to my post below, today I used terms like "decoyed France", "women decoyed France". It looks like issues about English girls decoyed to France for immoral purposes came up in patterns. My time range was 1875-1892, trying to hit MJK's lifespan, figuring a brewing scandal could have erupted after her death.

There was a big stink about English girls to France in 1881. The Eliza Armstrong case was 1885. Nellie Baskett in 1890. Then I clipped some other things that need to go on their own thread, I think. Do-gooder, suffragette/temperance agitators went after music halls in 1894. That is an interesting subject and if the practices circa 1894 were in existence in during Mary's life we might have another Point to Ponder. (The music hall issue did not seem to have anything to do with girls being lured to other countries.)

It is too hot and I am too tired to think how to post this information which is new to me. I can't even drop a name for the main agitator because I can't remember it and don't want to mess with my files right now. Anyway, this woman and her associates may have helped stir up the stink over decoyed girls in 1881 and the Armstrong case in 1885.