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  • Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
    The words of Kate Smith (future wife of Lord Henry James Fitzroy) regarding gay houses, prostitution and Madame Ochse supplying dresses and clothing to her and then trying to get them back in court.

    This is only a part of the case reported on in this newspaper.

    Daily News
    January 26, 1870



    There was, I read, about 10 times more prostitution in those days so to end up in a "gay house" even by accident was almost inevitable. A good quantity of the younger, attractive women there would have immediately been introduced to Madam Bernstein/Ochse aka Madam Swaebe.

    Of course, in my MJW scenario, she would already have been introduced to Madame Ochse since the 1886 marriage of Oscar Ochse/Osborn made them relatives. For me, the question is how do we get from Rosalie Ochse and/or Eugenie Roullier to Pennington St and Breezers HIll. Was there a middle man or woman? Would Mrs. "Buki" have gone all the way to "Knightsbridge" to pick up a box of dresses on the say-so of a complete, unvouched-for stranger just off the passenger steamer?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
      At the risk of being accused of pedantry, I must point out that passenger steamers did not call at the St Katherine (no ‘s) Docks, but at the Irongate and St Katherine wharves.
      I know Stead is quoted as saying he took a steamer from the Docks.
      Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon
      Josephine Butler and the Prostitution Campaigns: Child prostitution and the ... - Josephine Elizabeth Grey Butler - Google Books


      Do you think the White Slave Trade to Belgium and France bypassed the gang on Breezers Hill?

      St Katharine Docks

      First you will reach St Katharine Docks a former working dock named after a hospital that used to be here. Here you will find many of the for London usual chain restaurants, like Café Rouge, Slug and Lettuce or Strada. Keep on walking along the Thames and you will soon be in a quite enchanting area with a gruesome history. Visit Wapping to discover stories about poverty, sailors, prostitutes, pirates, hangings and slave trade....

      THE TOURISTIN: Travel Great Britain. Wapping walking tour: Poverty, sailors, slaves, pirates and pubs

      Vice Beyond the Pale: Representing ‘White Slavery’ in Britain c.1880 – 1912
      Attwood THESIS TO PRINT.pdf (ucl.ac.uk)

      Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon
      Josephine Butler and the Prostitution Campaigns: Child prostitution and the ... - Josephine Elizabeth Grey Butler - Google Books

      Comment


      • You’ll also find HR describing MJK disembarking from a steamer at St Katherine Dock, coming down the gangplank and turning right into the Ratcliff Highway. She was wrong too.


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        • At least HR was right about the human trafficking to the continent in connection to MJK. It looks to me like MJK was involved, but not as a victim - as an accessory. Her MJK chapter might be worth a read after all.

          So I was wrong about the box of dresses too and you were right.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
            The words of Kate Smith (future wife of Lord Henry James Fitzroy) regarding gay houses, prostitution and Madame Ochse supplying dresses and clothing to her and then trying to get them back in court.

            This is only a part of the case reported on in this newspaper.

            Daily News
            January 26, 1870



            As Gary has pointed out, Essex is a very good link and
            may be a very good lead.

            http://www.cosmicelk.net/tudorbastard.htm

            Comment


            • Originally posted by San Fran View Post
              As Gary has pointed out, Essex is a very good link and
              may be a very good lead.

              http://www.cosmicelk.net/tudorbastard.htm
              I had reason to go on a trip through parts of rural Essex and into Hertfordshire on Wednesday. I think I passed the entrance to SM’s farm in Stapleford Abbots at one point.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by San Fran View Post
                At least HR was right about the human trafficking to the continent in connection to MJK. It looks to me like MJK was involved, but not as a victim - as an accessory. Her MJK chapter might be worth a read after all.

                So I was wrong about the box of dresses too and you were right.
                The traffic was supposed to work both ways, and we know of examples of continental ‘girls’ ending up in and around the Highway.

                HR’s short chapter on MJK is largely conjectural and where she does touch on historical fact she gets herself a bit muddled. Have you read it? If not, when I’ve got time, I’ll perhaps summarise her thoughts on Kelly’s West End and French escapades.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                  The words of Kate Smith (future wife of Lord Henry James Fitzroy) regarding gay houses, prostitution and Madame Ochse supplying dresses and clothing to her and then trying to get them back in court.

                  This is only a part of the case reported on in this newspaper.

                  Daily News
                  January 26, 1870



                  Henry James FitzRoy, Earl of Euston - Wikipedia


                  Cleveland Street scandal - Wikipedia

                  Hmm
                  ...... GAY houses.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by D.J.Adams View Post
                    Hmm[/URL] ...... GAY houses.
                    Ironically, that could be Fitzroy's attempt to go more legitimate! Or at least less illegitimate!

                    Fitzroy: Name Meaning, Popularity, and Similar Names | Nameberry
                    Surname Database: Fitzroy Last Name Origin (surnamedb.com)

                    Comment


                    • By funding the escape of Hammond.

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                      • Thanks Dave and San Fran.

                        See posts #5 and #6 here.

                        Edward Eustace - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by D.J.Adams View Post
                          By funding the escape of Hammond.
                          Hammond's little black book of names earned him a hush money bank account in California. The names in that register (from Cleveland street) and letters he possessed were attempted to be obtained by a journalist from Chicago named Micajah Fible. Fible ended up dead, by the way. The last man known to be with him alive at a train station was, Charles Hammond.

                          Arthur Newton was behind the funding for the escape. Newton was solicitor for Lord Arthur Somerset who was also involved in the scandal and was able to flee the country to avoid prosecution.

                          Comment


                          • Personally, I think the roots of MJK's existence and reasons for her absconding to London go back to the Dublin Castle Scandal of 1884. I think that scandal is also the roots for the Cleveland Street Scandal. Both scandals involved the post office. Remember, there was a high ranking postal official involved in the aftermath of the Miller's Court murder. Wasn't it around 1884 that Mary was said to have arrived in London?

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                            • It so happens that Jack Saul ended up involved with Charles Hammond and was his right hand man in the Cleveland Street affair. He was also involved in the Dublin Castle Scandal of 1884.

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