Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The French Lady Uncovered ?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Mark Kent View Post
    Hi San Fran - Yes...that's what some people believe. I think the original name was a reporters attempt at hearing a French name and then transcribing it to fit some English version. Then came the Morganstone connection and Bouquet became Buki....or maybe it just might have really been Bouche, a French madam who operated a brothel on Greek Street?
    You be the judge....
    I think most people who have looked into the matter believe Mrs Buki was Elisabeth Boekee.

    Comment


    • The original document found showed the name spelled Boeku, the spelling still used in publications. But it was really spelled Boekee which is a better phonetic match to Buki than Boeku, or Bouche I think.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by San Fran View Post
        I don't see a whole lot of difference in the scenario with MJK docking at the Irongate Wharf or the St. Katharine's Wharf (now Pier?).

        I found sources that say that there was a problem with unaccompanied women being accosted at the Wharf/Docks and needing protection. The scenario of Mary being picked up at the Docks, or more likely a bar, or even her "turning right" as you quoted HR, still looks the best bet.

        wharf.jpg

        Comment


        • Originally posted by San Fran View Post

          I don't see a whole lot of difference in the scenario with MJK docking at the Irongate Wharf or the St. Katharine's Wharf (now Pier?).

          I found sources that say that there was a problem with unaccompanied women being accosted at the Wharf/Docks and needing protection. The scenario of Mary being picked up at the Docks, or more likely a bar, or even her "turning right" as you quoted HR, still looks the best bet.

          wharf.jpg
          She wouldn’t have been at the Docks. She would have arrived at one of the wharves - Irongate or St Katherine. From there she would have exited into Little Tower Hill which was lined with cabs. If she eschewed the cab option and walked all the way to the top of Little Tower Hill, a right hand turn would have presented itself - Upper East Smithfield which had blank dock walls along its southern side as far as the eye could see.

          There were two pubs on the wharves, though.

          Comment


          • I found the quote about unaccompanied immigrant and non-immigrant women falling prey to the "sharks" at the dock.

            ...allusion should also be made to a species of infamy which, I am credibly informed, has been carried on for some time past at the London Docks. Many of the immigrants are young women, Jewesses of considerable personal attractions. Men-sharks, and female harpies of all descriptions, are on the look-out for them as soon as they disembark. The young women are approached, and asked in "Yiddish" whether they are in want of work. The answer of course is in the affirmative, especially as many of these young Jewesses arrive in a friendless condition. "Then," comes the suggestion, "you had better come and stay with me until you get it," or "I can put you in the way of obtaining it." Of course this dodge does not always succeed...But in two cases out of three it does. The girl, friendless and unprotected, goes off with her interlocutor, and then the old shameful story is repeated. She stays in the house until the little she has is more than due for board; her efforts to earn an honest living are in vain; and when she is destitute, she is told she must either leave the place, minus even her little baggage, or earn money at the expense of her virtue. Such a dilemma, in nine cases out of ten, presents only one means of escape; and the girl goes to swell the number of the lost and degraded of our great cities. One of the worst features of this system is, that the decoy is largely carried on by Englishmen and Englishwomen, and by no means confined to foreigners alone.
            The Project Gutenberg eBook of The Alien Invasion, by W. H. Wilkins.

            Comment


            • Of course, the above scenario doesn't make sense happening to a woman who had just been decoyed and duped by Eugenie Roullier. She wouldn't fall for that again. That's another reason for me to go with Mary being a semi-willing accomplice to the procuress, who lost her semi-willingness but would still continue the life.
              She wouldn’t have been at the Docks. She would have arrived at one of the wharves - Irongate or St Katherine. From there she would have exited into Little Tower Hill which was lined with cabs. If she eschewed the cab option and walked all the way to the top of Little Tower Hill, a right hand turn would have presented itself - Upper East Smithfield which had blank dock walls along its southern side as far as the eye could see.
              I think I see what you mean with the geography ruling out a "right turn" to Pennington.

              The question then arises for me as to whether someone like the Morgenstern brothers would be on the docks on the lookout for girls. Presumably he had girls and he or they would be on the lookout for sailors. They wouldn't be at the passenger steamer docks or the local pubs there unless they were looking for girls to prey on.

              A desperate Mary might go with one of the Morgensterns or a Maywood, even if she had no illusions about the place she was going to.

              Comment


              • I think it's fair to assume that, with Morgenstern and wife taking Mary Kelly in, that they had a room to spare so, with a steamer from France coming in, I think it's also fair to assume that Morgenstern or Boekee were among those waiting to see who comes off the ship and offering accommodations and work to any unaccompanied woman.

                Comment


                • I will have to say, after all this time of Ripper research, that this is the most likely chain of Mary's progress in London from the West End to Pennington in the East, from the information we have been given. Unless someone can come up with a better alternative or better modify this one, this is it:

                  Rosalie and Charles Ochse to Walter Sickert to Eugenie Roullier and Captain Verney to the Steamer from France to Morgenstern and Boekee

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by San Fran View Post
                    I will have to say, after all this time of Ripper research, that this is the most likely chain of Mary's progress in London from the West End to Pennington in the East, from the information we have been given. Unless someone can come up with a better alternative or better modify this one, this is it:

                    Rosalie and Charles Ochse to Walter Sickert to Eugenie Roullier and Captain Verney to the Steamer from France to Morgenstern and Boekee
                    One part of the story that has come down to us has been misinterpreted, in my opinion. References to the Highway, Pennington Street and Breezers Hill are most likely describing one location - 79, Pennington Street. When we hear that she lived first with Mrs Buki and then with Mrs Carthy/McCarthy, it is assumed that she moved from one place to another, but the evidence suggests that it was Buki/ McCarthy who moved.

                    As for the steamer route, to/from Irongate/St Katherine, that’s possible, but there were other routes to and from the continent. What I find unlikely is that Kelly turned up at St Katherines and somehow made her way to Pennington Street by accident or even by being procured there by a placeur (or whatever the correct term is).

                    As for all the other stuff, I’m sorry but when a name such as Sickert pops up, I switch off.



                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                      As for the steamer route, to/from Irongate/St Katherine, that’s possible, but there were other routes to and from the continent. What I find unlikely is that Kelly turned up at St Katherines and somehow made her way to Pennington Street by accident or even by being procured there by a placeur (or whatever the correct term is).
                      In the end, there's evidence for the female traffic going that way and ending up on Pennington. I've seen none going from West to East as professionals.

                      Would the brothel keepers even wait around for one or be on paid-standby to accept any castoffs, when the "pickings" were so good on the Wharf or Dock? They're lodgings weren't especially spacious.

                      The box (valise of dresses) story suggests she got separated from it. I would suggest it was through long-distance travel. If she was sent away from a West End brothel, then why would they send her away without her valise.


                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post

                        Hi Anna.

                        I like to keep a handful of links to 19th century dictionaries (from the 1820's onward), we notice that occasionally the meaning of words do change. We need to know what the usage was at the time.

                        There did appear to be a distinction between Milliner and Milaner, the former signifying a worker in hats, typically female, the latter a trader in goods from Milan.
                        Not the same word.

                        Here we read:
                        Milliner, a maker of ladies hats, bonnets, etc.
                        Milaner, a dealer in goods made in, or brought from, Milan.
                        1911.
                        https://archive.org/details/moderndi...p?view=theater
                        (p.430.)

                        Again:
                        Milliner, a Person (usu. woman) who makes up bonnets and other female apparel.
                        Milaner, vender of Milan goods.
                        1919.
                        https://archive.org/details/con00cis...p?view=theater
                        (p.516)

                        In that latter case, Milliner, when applied to a man, means: "..one busied in trifling occupations". Like a slap in the face for women's work
                        Ya gotta laugh!
                        Thanks, Wickerman. Yes, we need to know the meanings at the time and in some cases guess the misspellings or misuse of words in newspapers and records.
                        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                        Comment


                        • In that latter case, Milliner, when applied to a man, means: "..one busied in trifling occupations". Like a slap in the face for women's work
                          Ya gotta laugh!
                          Could this demeaning view be applied to the term "shoddy shop"? Charles Ochse would have been a trader in "fancy goods". Could it not be deemed as a "trifling occupation" for a man or a trade in "shoddy rags"?

                          In which case, the report of Mary working in a "shoddy shop" could actually mean that she worked in a "fancy goods" shop.

                          Comment


                          • Shoddy cloth, invented in the mid 19th century was made from waste wool and was used for the making of clothes, shoddy being cheaper to make would allow clothes to be sold cheaper than those made from new wool. Perhaps the term "shoddy shop" could mean a cheap clothing shop?

                            A little more detail here:

                            https://www.historyextra.com/period/...e-word-shoddy/

                            Rgds
                            John

                            Comment


                            • I thought this was interesting. I wonder who the companions from her more prosperous days would be?

                              Hull Daily Mail
                              November 12th, 1888


                              Comment


                              • The article says "statements have appeared". That sounds like written statements. Could that be evidence that Mrs. Phoenix, in her statement to the police, did make those statements about Buki and Mary and the French Lady in the West End?

                                Madam Roullier didn't live in a "fashionable" house of resorts. But I don't doubt that Madam Ochse did. Or else, how did she become a minor celebrity that was lampooned in the papers?!

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X