The French Lady Uncovered ?

[Robert Linford]

Hi Jerry

That is very interesting. I doubt if it's the same guy, but Chris Phillips knows a lot about Kosminski's relatives so it might be worthwhile your sending him a PM.

[Robert Linford]

His username is CGP.

[Jerry Dunlop]

Sharp denials

Thanks for that Robert. I will send him a message.

Here is a news article on Arthur Cohen and Florence St. John. The heading reads, SHARP DENIALS.

http://bklyn.newspapers.com/image/50383546/

Her Wikipedia says she was known by her many friends as, "Jack". haha

[Anna Morris]

Robert: You could have something connecting court milliners to the judicial system. However in general milliners fashioned women's hats, for what it's worth.

[Jerry Dunlop]

Thanks Anna. Yes it would be interesting if they serviced royalty, but maybe too much to hope for.

Actually, they did service royalty Robert.

From the book, Recollections of Mrs. Hester Taffetas, Court Milliner and Modiste during the Reign of King George the Third and his Consort Queen Charlotte.(read page 1 and 2) She explains how she came into her position as court milliner and who she serviced.

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?i...iew=1up;seq=15

[Robert Linford]

Hi Jerry

I'll try to read that - have to watch the old eyes.

Here is the judgment. Points 3 and 4 are puzzling : if A does not commit adultery with B, then surely it's obvious that B does not commit adultery with A.

[Jerry Dunlop]

That is puzzling, Robert.

Even more puzzling, back to the Ochse's, is why court milliners would end up servicing prostitutes and their clients. According to the story of Hester Taffetas, she made more money than she knew what to do with as a court milliner. Sounds like Rosalie and Charles did too with a page, coachman etc. Plus it seems the court milliners were fairly intimate with their clients of nobility. Enough so that Hester wrote chapter upon chapter about different Lords and Ladies that she worked for.

Also made me think about the bonnets that we hear about so frequently. Jack the Ripper seemed to have a fetish with them, no?

[Jerry Dunlop]

Madame Bernstein Ochse

The true nature of her business exposed.

https://books.google.com/books?id=E6...page&q&f=false (page 119)

[Anna Morris]

Fascinating stuff, Jerry.

I must be missing something. Why were milliners used who appear to be something close to blackmailers? I can understand they furnished some things outside of millinery and dressmaking, but it seems hats and gowns could be purchased from respectable sources. Unless the apparel produced was of a style that respectable women would never order?

I have considered the bonnet angle and JtR many times. Not sure I figured anything out though. I still think there is a key to Jack and his crimes but I have no idea what it is. As many believe, Mary Kelly is probably part of the solution.

[Robert Linford]

I found a few bits and pieces about Ochse in the newspapers.

In 1869 a Frenchman was convicted of threatening to kill him.

In 1870 he tried to get a woman to pay the money she owed him for clothes. The Judge told the jury to find for the woman, because Ochse had known that the clothes were to be used for an immoral purpose when he sold them to her.

In 1886, Ochse was in the bankruptcy courts.

In the same year, he tried to recover money for clothes he'd sold to an actress.

And, somewhat strangely, he traded as "Madame Charles."

[Jerry Dunlop]

I found a few bits and pieces about Ochse in the newspapers.

In 1869 a Frenchman was convicted of threatening to kill him.

In 1870 he tried to get a woman to pay the money she owed him for clothes. The Judge told the jury to find for the woman, because Ochse had known that the clothes were to be used for an immoral purpose when he sold them to her.

In 1886, Ochse was in the bankruptcy courts.

In the same year, he tried to recover money for clothes he'd sold to an actress.

And, somewhat strangely, he traded as "Madame Charles."

Hi Robert and thanks.

The 1869 case is the one I posted the Old Bailey link to earlier in this thread involving Louis Saumade.

Madame Charles, huh? Seems rather odd, doesn't it? haha

[Jerry Dunlop]

Mabel Grey's Protector

Hi Anna,
Here is an extract from West Hampstead Life regarding Mabel Grey. This is some of that blackmailing you were talking about and it came from Rosalie and Charles shop again in Picadilly.

Harry Vane Milbank
Albert’s stepfather William Harry Vane Milbank had a very colourful life.
Generally known as Harry Vane Milbank, he was born in 1849, the son of Sir Frederick Acclom Milbank, M.P. After attending Eton, Harry held a commission as Cornet (2nd Lieutenant) in the Royal Horse Guards until the end of 1870. By the time he turned 21 on 29 December 1869, Harry was already in debt to the tune of £30,000. Around the time of his marriage to Alice on 1 March 1871, Harry went into voluntary bankruptcy, owing his many creditors over £76,000. An early report appeared in January when Harry was being pursued for money by a photographer. In early April, his bankruptcy by arrangement with creditors was agreed. At the time, the judge called it ‘a case of a young man with splendid expectations,’ able to raise the money to pay off his creditors in full, which he intended to do. Harry was expected to inherit what a friend called ‘pots of money’ on the death of his father and his grand-uncle, the Duke of Cleveland. Alice must surely have known about Harry’s financial problems. But was she aware he’d only recently tried to marry someone else? Harry owed over £1,000 to a Piccadilly dress shop, for clothes supplied to Mabel Gray between February 1870 and January 1871, when Mabel was ‘living under the protection’ of Milbank. The Times politely called her a ‘celebrity’ but in reality Mabel was a notorious ‘demi-mondaine’ of the 1860s, a lady supported by a number of wealthy lovers. Her real name was Annie King, and she’d worked as a shop girl in London’s West End before embarking on her new career. Mabel’s photographs sold in huge numbers, ‘a beautiful creature, tall, slender, elegant, refined, she wore outrageously costly but prefect toilettes and some of the best diamonds in London.’ It took the ‘robust intervention’ of his father and the Duke of Cleveland, to prevent Milbank marrying Mabel Gray. It was rumoured that they had bought her off with a large sum of money.

Link to whole article: http://westhampsteadlife.com/2013/02...tepfather/5087

[Jerry Dunlop]

Fascinating stuff, Jerry.

I must be missing something. Why were milliners used who appear to be something close to blackmailers? I can understand they furnished some things outside of millinery and dressmaking, but it seems hats and gowns could be purchased from respectable sources. Unless the apparel produced was of a style that respectable women would never order?

I have considered the bonnet angle and JtR many times. Not sure I figured anything out though. I still think there is a key to Jack and his crimes but I have no idea what it is. As many believe, Mary Kelly is probably part of the solution.

I would guess the answer to your question would be the fact that they (Ochse) were dealing with nobility and these men of nobility were 'protecting' (paying the bills) these demimondes such as Kate Walsh and Mabel Grey. These high class prostitutes were also very attractive. This is proven with Mabel Grey and the fact she had another career as a photographic model. The run-of-the-mill dress shop didn't have the relationship with these men in high society.

If Mary Kelly were as attractive as was rumored, I wouldn't doubt she was just the type of woman these men would have been looking to 'protect'. The question is, why did she end up in the east end where the lower class prostitutes were?

Remember too, Mabel Grey learned her trade from the evil Mary Jeffries.

[Chris G.]

I double checked the meaning of (court) milliner in case there was something specifically British about court milliner. Milliner has always been to my knowledge a person who makes or decorates hats, usually women's hats. The word derives from Milan (Italy), and came into use about 1530 to describe those who imported fancy fabrics and such from Milan.

I wonder if the addition of the word court defines a location, such as a milliner operating in a court. (Like Mary Kelly trimming hats at Millers Court. ;-)) Alternately could it mean a milliner who provided the service to members of the royal court?

Mrs. Felix/Phoenix I believe was a milliner. If not her then a close relative working with her was in the trade.

Hi Anna

Thanks. My maternal grandmother, Sarah Elizabeth Potts, born in Gateshead, in the northeast of England, August 4, 1897, was a milliner in Liverpool, making hats, in the second decade of the twentieth century, before she met my grandfather, George T. Matchett.

Chris

[Jerry Dunlop]

One other thought crossed my mind, the clothes in the fire in Millers Court. Did they contain a clue? One suggestion may be they bore the makers mark and if a well known dressmaker was involved in the crime he/they would certainly want to dispose of any evidence linking their business to a crime such as this. Another suggestion would be that Mary Kelly stubbornly retrieved her elegant possessions and box from the West End only to piss someone off. Bringing Mrs. Buki along showed a bit of determination and maybe a little fear of retrieval on her part. Do we know if she ended up receiving her possessions with Mrs. Buki? They must have been worth some money. Maybe she went back at a later date to get the box and succeeded only to have them burned in her fireplace out of spite?

Lots of speculation, but I feel there really could be some sort of connection with MJK to some of these people in this thread.