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Mrs Rees 1888

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  • #16
    Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson
    Believe what you wish. I think it is likely they looked, but in the absence of a positive statement to that effect, I don't assume it.
    Well, you should. These are the same people who opened up Eddowes' tin match box and found it 'empty'. I think they could manage to take a peak inside a teapot, don't you? And it's hardly their fault that the descriptive inventory of Kelly's room got lost to purloiners. I'm sorry, I don't buy into the idea that just because they were Victorian that they were dribbling imbeciles.

    Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson
    It's important for one reason and one reason only: there was a raging fire in that room that night, and no one has yet come up with an explanation for why the killer wanted that.
    Are you kidding? I must have seen a few dozen different explanations by this point, including your cannibalism idea which has been around for years. Of course, despite your unwillingness to assume the obvious in the case of the teapot, you're quite ready to assume that the Ripper and not Kelly started the fire. I wonder why that is?

    Yours truly,

    Tom Wescott

    Comment


    • #17
      I'm sorry, I don't buy into the idea that just because they were Victorian that they were dribbling imbeciles.

      Please be so kind as to cite the post where I have ever said the Victorians were imbeciles, drooling or otherwise, then we can discuss your other contentions.

      Comment


      • #18
        Please be so kind as to cite the post in which I stated that a post existed in which you specifically stated the Victorians were imbeciles, drooling or otherwise. When you're done with your game of semantics, I'll be anxious to read your thoughtful reply.

        Yours truly,

        Tom Wescott

        Comment


        • #19
          Tom:

          Actually,its not absurd to consider that the police didn't look closely inside the teapot. Not that they didn't,but its not like this is a good stash spot in the first place. Often times,things go uninvestigated,because someone expected the "other guy" to have checked it out. Passing the pot,so to speak...or passing the buck.

          Lets remain on track on this thread and keep all options available and remarks germane.

          On the point of Anderson ( the one from 1888,not 2007) remarking that the handwriting found on the Wentworth building was similar to a "suspect's"...one could easily dismiss that,since chalk writing and pen writing are virtually incomparable and Anderson was not an experienced graphologist. But for the sake of open discussion,lets keep it optional as well.

          Thanks in advance.
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          • #20
            Actually the idea of Mary Kelly as an abortionist would clear up a lot of points that have always picked away at my brain.
            Like why did she have contained and private accommodation whilst all the other unfortunates had to rough it in the doss houses?
            It would also explain why Kelly frequently had women visitors, and that they stayed overnight.
            M'Carthy's largesse with Kelly's rent could be explained by his knowledge of her 'medical' practise, and on him taking a cut of the earnings.
            It would also explain why Kelly and Barnett appeared to have income when neither were working; and could have been the very reason for their disagreement over women 'staying' in Kelly's room overnight.
            But the best I think is that it gives a rational explanation for the fierce fire that burnt in the room that night... for we have had a clear demonstration from the Old Bailey case that it was entirely possible to dispose of the body of even a full term baby, over night in such a small domestic fireplace. One just had to ensure that the bones were removed and hidden afterwards, and one had indeed got away with murder.
            Given Mary Jane Kelly's connection to a family of famous abortionists since she was a young girl of 17 in Swansea - where I would suggest she probably went to have an abortion herself - it is entirely possible that she herself was taught the unwholesome craft by her mentor Mary Jane Rees.
            It is, I feel, an avenue well worthy of further exploration, for it could give some very credible ground to the almost incredible tale of Mary Kelly being seen alive on the morning following her supposed murder.
            As incredible as that might seem.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by A.P. Wolf
              M'Carthy's largesse with Kelly's rent could be explained by his knowledge of her 'medical' practise, and on him taking a cut of the earnings.
              Very very interesting concept, A.P.

              Well, we know how much McCarthy was charging for rent; do we have any idea what the going rates for a back alley abortion were ?

              My initial thought would be that an abortionist could have afforded better housing than Miller's Court.

              Comment


              • #22
                AP, not too sure about this abortion business. Given that an abortionist can't advertise, she'll need to rely on word of mouth. We hear of no rumours touching on Kelly in this connection. Further, there were no tools of her trade found in the room.

                Robert

                Comment


                • #23
                  Agreed gentlemen
                  the idea of Mary Kelly being an abortionist is somewhat alien to my good self as well. However there does appear to be a linkage here, somewhere along the well-trodden line.
                  If one looks at the mysterious death of Eliza Schummacher in 1888, murdered by an unknown abortionist when she wasn't even pregnant; and then the 'Mysterious Death at Walthamstow' - a case I'm about to post - then it was not really unusual for London women in 1888 to die at the hands of abortionists... even when they were not pregnant.
                  My suggestion is that, based on the as yet gentle connection between Mary Jane Kelly, prostitute, and Mary Jane Rees, abortionist; and the fact that Mary Jane Kelly was supposedly murdered in November of 1888; and the fact that Mary Jane Rees was sentenced to ten years in December of 1888... are in fact facts too fat to ignore.
                  I should point out that the connection between Mary Jane Kelly and Mary Jane Rees was featured in several newspapers of the time.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by How Brown
                    On the point of Anderson ( the one from 1888,not 2007) remarking that the handwriting found on the Wentworth building was similar to a "suspect's"...
                    Oh, I doubt it really did, but that's not the point. The point is that it was taken seriously and either a comparison was done, or one of the officers at the scene who saw it personally thought he recognized it as one of the people they were already investigating. Of course, Anderson may have just meant that it resembled the 'Dear Boss' letter, which one of the people present thought it did.

                    Yours truly,

                    Tom Wescott

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I went last night and looked up the Star article that AP mentioned. I feel like a fool now because that's a very popular report and a source for a lot of our info about Kelly. However, I don't recall anyone else discussing the 'Mrs. Rees' connection until AP isolated it here. How weird is that? Was this brought up in Chris Scott's book? If it were I feel even more foolish because I read that book through, enjoyed it, and continue to refer to it for sourcing.

                      Yours truly,

                      Tom Wescott

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Tom_Wescott
                        Was this brought up in Chris Scott's book?
                        It wasn't, Tom, and I don't recall Mrs Rees being mentioned elsewhere, so kudos to AP for homing in on her. (I still think the Kelly-as-abortionist idea is a tad beyond the zinc bath, though, Mr Wolf )

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sam Flynn
                          (I still think the Kelly-as-abortionist idea is a tad beyond the zinc bath, though, Mr Wolf )
                          I agree, but I laud folks daring to think outside the box.

                          Let's not forget Dew also saw her parading around as a prostitute.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Tom,

                            Chris Scott did mention Mrs. Rees once on Casebook.

                            http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/20123.html
                            Posted by Chris Scott on March 15, 2005
                            "It appears from inquiries made at Carmarthen and Swansea, that after leaving the former place for the latter, Kelly, who was then only 17 years of age, entered the service of a Mrs. Rees, who stands committed to the next assizes on a charge of procuring abortion, and who is the daughter of a medical man formerly resident at Carmarthen."
                            This would indeed be a useful lead to follow, but sadly this rumour was quashed the very same day in a press account in the Cambria Daily Leader, which reads as follows:
                            “It is stated in the 'Western Mail' that the murdered woman Kelly was at one
                            time a servant with Mrs. Rees (daughter of the late Dr. Hopkins), in
                            Trafalgar Terrace, Swansea. We are asked to say that this is not true.”

                            Nina

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Gareth, I found a death entry for a Mary Jane F Rees :

                              Mary Jane F Rees
                              abt 1860
                              1901
                              Jul-Aug-Sep
                              Swansea
                              Glamorgan, West Glamorgan


                              Using the age to check back, there was a Mary Jane Florence Rees in prison in 1891, just as she should have been - but in prison in England!

                              RG12/556 Folio 140 Page 9


                              This could well be her in 1881. Penny Something Rd
                              RG11/5316
                              Folio 120 Page 7


                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Nina,

                                Good to see you. Seems like forever since I've ran into you on the boards. I take it you no longer contribute to the Casebook?
                                Thanks for posting that from Chris. That inded puts a spin on it. But it seems that what's being denied is Kelly having worked for Mrs. Rees, not her having availed herself of the abortionist's services.

                                Yours truly,

                                Tom Wescott

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