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  • #46
    Down with the Down Low?

    (How Brown told me this in Baltimore, as he has done a lot of research into the profession. ) -Lord Blabbermouth

    If you think of it... in all sincerity,its not hard to see how women,those treated less than gentlemanly,putting it mildly...could cuddle with another female if that was missing with in their relationships with men back then. Women,ahem,know what women like better than a man does in a sexual relationship and sad to say,a lot of men were/are pretty indifferent to a woman's needs,especially if most of a man's sexual encounters involved grabbing the top of a wooden fence as part of the lovemaking.....but yeah,in my 10,000 times on the mound,I've seen a few switch hitters.

    I kid,I kid...I meant just 2...not 10,000.

    A.P. I,at least,caught the "coal porter" line.

    And...you're right. Why hasn't anyone mentioned this before about what Barnett actually said ? He might have been thumbing his nose at a three-way,not some grumbling about "other girls" sharing the apartment. Maybe it was because Kelly,in her off-the-clock sex life preferred gettin' down with the down low for her own special needs. I never thought of that. Prostitutes don't kiss their clients...or so I have been,eh,told. Kelly might have got those kisses from misses as well as Joe...when he wasn't available.

    Thanks A.P. !
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    • #47
      Originally posted by How Brown

      And...you're right. Why hasn't anyone mentioned this before about what Barnett actually said ? He might have been thumbing his nose at a three-way,not some grumbling about "other girls" sharing the apartment. Maybe it was because Kelly,in her off-the-clock sex life preferred gettin' down with the down low for her own special needs. I never thought of that.
      If there is a dark and twisted path to take, that's where I gravitate.

      See, part of all this is that I am skeptical of comments made by paramours AFTER the murders that the deceased were not whoring while they were co-habitating. I don't believe Mary never sold herself when she was living with Barnett....I believe that he didn't want to say that she was, both for respect for the dead as well as the implications on his character.

      So....I look askew at his statements, and he's saying he was angry other wimmins were staying over. Now, 99.9% of the whoring these ladies did DID NOT involve overnight stays....so why the night guests if she was subletting by the hour so to speak ?

      A.P. thinks she may have been an abortionist, which is an interesting thought. He may be right.

      But the easier explanation is she also had lady friends, and Barnett was pissed off by it.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by How Brown
        And...you're right. Why hasn't anyone mentioned this before about what Barnett actually said ? He might have been thumbing his nose at a three-way,not some grumbling about "other girls" sharing the apartment.
        The notion that Kelly was gay/bi was discussed in Paley's book and long before. It is, of course, completely unsupported and contradicted by other information (her female friends noted she was quite 'fond' of another Joe, for instance). Oddly enough, they made Stride into a rug-muncher for From Hell, since Kelly had to be 'clean' as the femme fatale.

        Yours truly,

        Tom Wescott

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        • #49
          Bob:

          I'm like you too. I get the impression that in this field,we often overlook that these victims were humans first,women second...and we know that people live in situations which we give them "leeway" with in our perception as to how they may have been in reality. A.P. is,to me,a pioneer in advancing us all out of this narrowminded vision of the women,victims or otherwise .... as if they were completely helpless victims of the age..... without any abilities to make adjustments,adjustments that often went into areas we didn't consider out of respect.

          I think that the concept that Kelly may have been an abortionist...or perhaps one who indulged in some girl on girl action merely make Kelly more human and not just that mutilated mass most associate her with.
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          • #50
            Why would her friends expose a vice or denigratory attribute to her after her death? Her being bisexual isn't proven or even demonstrated,thats true...but its not out of the realm of possibility.

            We aren't talking about an age when open discussion about a lifestyle that would not enhance the memory of an individual ( A Ripper victim,in this case) would find a friend casually throwing out..."Yeah,she was into women too..."

            Eddowes' old man was fuzzy about her activities too...but thats understood.

            Just because the friends of Kelly didn't mention her ( and again,its not proven that she was....its just up for discussion...) being bisexual meant that those women would know.
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            • #51
              Originally posted by How Brown

              We aren't talking about an age when open discussion about a lifestyle that would not enhance the memory of an individual ( A Ripper victim,in this case) would find a friend casually throwing out..."Yeah,she was into women too..."
              My suspicion is that there was more 'deviant' behavior taking place in the pressure cooker that was the East End then history has recorded.

              How - look at Pearly Poll for a moment: Any chance she was a dyke ? Absolutely.

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              • #52
                Bob:

                "My suspicion is that there was more 'deviant' behavior taking place in the pressure cooker that was the East End then history has recorded."

                Of course there was...and if this can be contradicted by anyone ,I'll toss out out my high heels. Ain't no suspicion to it.

                Any dismissal of "what" the victims were not isn't any more productive than what they were. We simply need to keep these options open for discussion.

                I hesitate to opine that Pearly Poll was anything....but leave the option open....much like the open toed size 12 Joan Crawford pumps I gave you in Baltimore. Payback to Lord Blabs......
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                • #53
                  I would say there was more male on male buggery back then than there is today, but far less girl on girl. That's more prevalent now as it's become the 'hip' thing to be. Like I've always said, people are creatures of extremes.

                  Yours truly,

                  Tom Wescott

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                  • #54
                    According to the Queen, there was absolutely no lesbianism going on at all.

                    It is said that the reason why specifically male homosexuality was made illegal (I'm talking about the Labouchere Amendment) but lesbianism and female bisexuality remained legal, was because lawmakers did not want to inform women that lesbianism was an option.

                    JM

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by jmenges
                      (I'm talking about the Labouchere Amendment)
                      You know, Labouchere is famous for having an old gambling system named after him. It's one of the most reknown 'old school' progressive wagering systems. Works quite well until....it doesn't.

                      http://www.online-casinos.com/beginn...ere_system.asp

                      and a JSTOR article

                      http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=003...2-E&size=LARGE

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Tom_Wescott
                        Oddly enough, they made Stride into a rug-muncher for From Hell, since Kelly had to be 'clean' as the femme fatale.
                        If Kelly was the "femme fatale", would that make Pearly Poll the "butch vivante"?

                        Back to this thread - and thanks, AP, for clearly explaining where you're coming from.

                        Isn't it the case that we know for certain of only one "unfortunate" coming under Kelly's wing - the one who precipitated Barnett's moving out? This seemingly isolated instance of altruism perhaps isn't too encouraging a basis from which to extrapolate much about Kelly's kindness or sexuality - still less that she was a backstreet abortionist.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Sam Flynn
                          Isn't it the case that we know for certain of only one "unfortunate" coming under Kelly's wing - the one who precipitated Barnett's moving out? This seemingly isolated instance of altruism perhaps isn't too encouraging a basis from which to extrapolate much about Kelly's kindness or sexuality - still less that she was a backstreet abortionist.
                          Funny you say that....cuz I was poking around last night and could also find only a reference to one overnight guest. I'm wondering if I was mistaken entirely or just haven't found the source that put the idea in my head in the first place.

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                          • #58
                            Hi Gareth

                            I don't know whether she was a prostitute, but there was also Maria Harvey. Still, I don't see Kelly as an abortionist. Particularly on the night of 8th-9th. If I went to see a doctor and his speech was slurred, I'd call back another time.

                            Robert

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                            • #59
                              Yes, there does appear to be some confusion about just what female guests Mary Kelly allowed into her rooms in the week preceeding her murder. Something I intend to look at.
                              I'd like to point out that I find the connective tissue between Mary Jane Kelly of Swansea in 1880, and then Mary Jane Lees of Swansea, abortionist, to be of abiding interest, especially since their paths crossed again so dramatically in the winter of 1888.
                              Chances of?
                              I see Mary Kelly as more of a 'go-between' than an actual abortionist, arranging a time and a place, and this would go a long way to explaining the sudden and dramatic appearance of the man that George Hutchinson described that night, a doctor on a mission of mercy?
                              Basically I'm just firing a few rubber bands at the sun; and I've just had three hours solid with a drunken duke, several large bottles of very expensive Calvados which took twenty years to mature and then twenty minutes to drink while we pondered what to do with the latest hotel he has bought, and about my daughter who won't marry him yet...
                              All is not well in Mary Kelly land. I know that much.

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                              • #60
                                Well AP. at the risk of sounding like Mr Dick, if I bought a hotel I would hold a chess tournament there.

                                I would make sure that every player but me had liberal supplies of Calvados. This is the only way I could win.

                                Robert

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