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The Morgenstern Brothers, Felix Family & 79 Pennington Street

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  • I tell a lie, it was Frank Van Oploo, and he seems to be on Facebook.

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    • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
      To distinguish it from "R" for the Dutch Reformed Church, which was the dominant church in Holland at the time, perhaps? (I'm guessing about "R", by the way.) "RoomsChe" might explain the abbreviation "RC", as the "C" can't be for Catholic or Church, since these words start with a "K" in Dutch.
      Yes, could be.
      In earlier years where the choice Roomschen appears , the other options are Protestanten, Israeliten, and a choice that translates as 'none of the aforementioned'

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      • Isn't there someone on here who is Dutch too?

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        • Bart Droog did all that work on Hendrick de Jong. As I recall he has a website and can be contacted.

          www.traceyourdutchroots.com/roots/dict.html has interesting information, including abbreviations.

          I wonder if Kattrup would be of help? I think Dutch and Danish are quite a bit different yet they are both Germanic?

          Wouldn't some Dutch records contain some French? We always wondered about the Morgensterns and Belgian connections.
          The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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          • Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
            I wonder if Kattrup would be of help? I think Dutch and Danish are quite a bit different yet they are both Germanic?
            Nice idea, but Danish is a North Germanic language, a few steps removed from Dutch, which is a West Germanic language. I speak German and, whilst I could use it to get the gist of Dutch reasonably well, I wouldn't know much about Dutch acronyms. What I do know, though, is that the word "Catholic" is spelt with a "K" in all three languages.
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen"
            (F. Nietzsche)

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            • Bart Droog is who you should ask. He did sterling work on the De Jong case.

              My guess is that RC is Roman Catholic. Although catholic might now be spelled with a K, in the 19th Century it was not unusual to use the c-spelling. That was the case in both Danish and German, at least (Iíve never read much Dutch).

              So itís probably just a variant abbreviation for catholic

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              • Thanks everyone.
                I had some time to play around this afternoon and putting Rooms-Catholiek in to google brings up a huge number of modern and historical Dutch texts that spell it that way and all translate to Roman Catholic.

                This one is from a book published in 1723 in Amsterdam
                catholiek.JPG

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                • date and year of registration
                  Family name ( Family name of woman)
                  First nameswritten out in full
                  sex
                  relationship
                  date and year of birth
                  birthplace
                  marital status
                  denomination
                  office or main occupation
                  establishment in the municipality
                  previous address



                  Nov 1872
                  Morgenstern
                  Marrins Adrianns listed further down as Marinus Antonius with same birth date and a note saying the entry Marrins Adrianns is crossed out.
                  male
                  son
                  22 Feb 1854
                  Riel
                  single
                  RC
                  worker
                  30th Oct 1872
                  Someren?

                  Nov 1872
                  Morgenstern
                  Aadrian Lucas
                  male
                  son
                  two birthdates listed- 14th April 1844 and 17th April 1848
                  Riel
                  Married 30th Nov [1872]
                  RC
                  worker
                  19th Oct 1872
                  Antwerp Belgium

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                  • As I understand it, English comes at least in part from Fresian which is similar to Dutch. Written Dutch seems so familiar and like it would be easy to learn but if you hear it, like Andre Rieu even saying something simple, it sounds nothing like English.

                    I really appreciated Bart Droog's work and had the idea he would like to help with Dutch information.

                    As far as spellings, it looks to me that same or similar words can be spelled in dozens of different ways across various languages. Sometimes I watch videos with foreign subtitles just to see all these variants. I once raised a question about this on my page here concerning my special project. I think my current opinion is anything can be spelled any possible way as long as the letters somewhat sound something like what we think they should sound like. Or like a video explained, more or less, H and K are really the same thing. Or maybe it was another letter combination. It all made sense but there were centuries of developments that made it so.
                    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                    • Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
                      As I understand it, English comes at least in part from Fresian which is similar to Dutch. Written Dutch seems so familiar and like it would be easy to learn but if you hear it, like Andre Rieu even saying something simple, it sounds nothing like English.

                      I really appreciated Bart Droog's work and had the idea he would like to help with Dutch information.

                      As far as spellings, it looks to me that same or similar words can be spelled in dozens of different ways across various languages. Sometimes I watch videos with foreign subtitles just to see all these variants. I once raised a question about this on my page here concerning my special project. I think my current opinion is anything can be spelled any possible way as long as the letters somewhat sound something like what we think they should sound like. Or like a video explained, more or less, H and K are really the same thing. Or maybe it was another letter combination. It all made sense but there were centuries of developments that made it so.

                      Well, I don't know, Anna. I would incline toward the English coming from the Saxon, i.e., German, than the Dutch.
                      Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                      https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                      Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                      Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

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                      • Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
                        As I understand it, English comes at least in part from Fresian which is similar to Dutch.
                        English is a mongrel language, with many influences: Frisian, Saxon, Norman...
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen"
                        (F. Nietzsche)

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                        • Anyhoo

                          I also found a Dutch prison record for an Adrianus Morgenstern which gives a description.
                          I have translated most of the record

                          I believe that this is probably Adrianus Lucas Morgenstern. The father's name of Peter, place of birth and part of the mother's name check out. The age is given as 25 and that more or less checks out with one of two years of birth given for Adrianus Lucas of 1848 that I mentioned in an earlier post.

                          Breda Prison record

                          Adrianus Morgenstern
                          sex-male
                          father-Petrus
                          mother-Joanna Cornelia
                          birthplace- Alphen
                          last residence- Roosendal
                          age-25 years
                          marital status-married
                          language-Dutch
                          profession-worker
                          religious denomination- R R [could be R K]
                          length 1.78 el* [I assume this is height but see note below]

                          colouring-
                          forehead-long
                          nose-gewoon [translates as normal or ordinary]
                          mouth-gewoon
                          chin-
                          eyes-brown
                          eyebrows-brown
                          hair-brown
                          beard-
                          distiguishing marks-left eye squint

                          primary education-N

                          wilful maltreatment
                          [not able to successfully translate next few words but relate to date of verdict and by whom]
                          6 days imprisonment
                          sentence date 22 April 1874
                          first or repeat offence- 1
                          undergone another punishment elsewhere?-unknown

                          still working on a couple of bits


                          * El

                          The length represented by the Dutch ell was the distance of the inside of the arm (i.e. the distance from the armpit to the tip of the fingers), an easy way to measure length. The Dutch "ell", which varied from town to town (55 – 75 cm), was somewhat shorter than the English ell (114.3 cm). A section of measurements is given below:[9]
                          one Hague ell or standard ell (Haagse of gewone el) = 69.425 cm
                          one Amsterdam ell (Amsterdamse el) = 68.78 cm
                          one Brabant ell (Brabantse el) = 69.2 cm or 16 tailles
                          one Delft ell (Delfsche el) = 68.2 cm
                          one Goes ell (Goesche el) = 69 cm
                          one Twente ell (Twentse el) = 58.7 cm
                          In 1725 the Hague ell was fixed as the national standard for tax purposes and from 1816 to 1869, the word el was used in the Netherlands to refer to the metre. In 1869 the word meter was adopted and the el, disappeared, both as a word and as a unit of measurement.

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                          • Interestingly, the "ell" was originally a biblical unit of measurement.
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen"
                            (F. Nietzsche)

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                            • Whatever the religion, I think we can rule this one out:

                              https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ch-court-rules
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen"
                              (F. Nietzsche)

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                              • Great job, Debs !
                                Thank you for sharing this....
                                Xxxxxx
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                                Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

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