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The Morgenstern Brothers, Felix Family & 79 Pennington Street

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  • Debra,
    Would you post what you found of Johnannes Franciscus too? I'd love to see what youve found

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    • Originally posted by Libby Isted View Post
      Debra,
      Would you post what you found of Johnannes Franciscus too? I'd love to see what youve found
      Just birth and population census records, Libby but I will happily post them later on, no problem.

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      • There is also some sort of legal document that mentions all the children of Peter Morgenstern and seems to have been drawn up after his death but although I have the index listing, I haven't located the entry in the actual book yet.

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        • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
          Just birth and population census records, Libby but I will happily post them later on, no problem.
          Libby, I think you have all the information included in them on your family tree already.

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          • Just noticed R. Catholijk written in full under religion for Joanna Cornelia van der Minna (mother) and all the Morgenstern children. Father, Peter, gave Dutch reformed (Nedl. hervormd) for his religion. That definitely settles the earlier R.C. query.

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            • Over on Facebook, Terry Holland, a translator in Holland, refined the original description of Adrianus that I translated myself . There were a couple of things I couldn't quite get:

              Face: oval
              Forehead: rounded
              Mouth: unremarkable
              Eyes: brown
              Hair: brown
              Particular characteristics: squint/cross-eyed in left eye
              Complexion: healthy
              Nose: unremarkable
              Chin: rounded
              Eyebrows: brown
              Beard: – [id]

              Terry also said this about the crime of mishandeling that Adrianus was charged with:
              "'mishandeling' is still a current criminal term in the Netherlands and almost always means physical abuse, i.e. beating someone up (unless specifically qualified as psychological or emotional abuse). actually i just found the modern equivalent ('opzettelijke mishandeling') in a legal dictionary and the definition given is 'maliciously inflicted grievous bodily harm', so actually it could be more serious than just a beating.

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              • I thought I saw this before somewhere, but I'm not sure. Anyway, I just found out you have free census access with a Familysearch.org account.

                England and Wales Census, 1891

                John "Morganstein"

                Event Type: Census
                Event Date: 1891
                County: London
                Parish: Limehouse
                Ecclesiastical Parish: ST PETER
                Registration District: Stepney
                Residence Note: West India Dock Road
                Gender: Male
                Age: 51
                Marital Status: Married
                Occupation: Skin Dresser
                Relationship to Head of Household: Head
                Birth Year (Estimated): 1840
                Birthplace: Holland
                Page Number: 40
                Registration Number: RG12
                Piece/Folio: 296/ 120

                Household Role Sex Age Birthplace

                Elizabeth Morganstein Wife Female 46 Holland
                Louisa Morganstein Daughter Female 6 London, England
                James H Hancock Lodger Male 27 London, England, Lighter Man
                Anne Hancock Lodger Female 29 London, England

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                • There are a few different spellings of Morgenstern. In 1901 Marinus is actually down as 'Morgenstone', there's also Elizabeth as Morginstin in 1911.

                  There's a lot of discussion on the boards about the Morgenstern, Maywood and Woodhouse families in Limehouse in 1891.

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                  • There is a volunteer conscript military record for Maryn Morgenstern in Rosendaal that is dated in the index as Dec 1874 but the actual date of military service register starts Jan 1873 in the book. There is no indication of the exact date Maryn joined up but he was in London by April 1874 when he was a witness at a family wedding.

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                    • [QUOTE=San Fran;356863]I thought I saw this before somewhere, but I'm not sure. Anyway, I just found out you have free census access with a Familysearch.org account.

                      England and Wales Census, 1891

                      John "Morganstein"

                      Event Type: Census
                      Event Date: 1891
                      County: London
                      Parish: Limehouse
                      Ecclesiastical Parish: ST PETER
                      Registration District: Stepney
                      Residence Note: West India Dock Road
                      Gender: Male
                      Age: 51
                      Marital Status: Married
                      Occupation: Skin Dresser
                      Relationship to Head of Household: Head
                      Birth Year (Estimated): 1840
                      Birthplace: Holland
                      Page Number: 40
                      Registration Number: RG12
                      Piece/Folio: 296/ 120

                      Household Role Sex Age Birthplace

                      Elizabeth Morganstein Wife Female 46 Holland
                      Louisa Morganstein Daughter Female 6 London, England
                      James H Hancock Lodger Male 27 London, England, Lighter Man
                      Anne Hancock Lodger Female 29 London, England[/QUOTE

                      Interestingly, somewhere around here we have a newspaper clip of a John Morgensten, Limehouse, accused of being rough with a woman. It is interesting to me that the name variation from Limehouse, once in a census and once in a news account, are so similar. I wonder if there was deliberate obfuscation via spelling? Something must have been going on since these families used Felix from time to time.
                      The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                        • This is something more suited to this thread

                          I don't think anyone has ever found out what happened to Joannes Morgenstern's first wife?

                          Joannem Fransiscum Morgenstern married Adrianam Mariam Falks in April 1874.

                          On 9 Aug 1874 they were both godparents at the baptism of Joannes Adrianus Valks son of Simeon and Naatze Valks named as Joannes Franciscus Morgenstern and Adriana Maria Morgenstern.

                          Then again on 14 Nov 1875 Adrianus Simon Valks, son of Adrianus L and Antonetta Valks formerly Kemeling had God parents named Joannes Franciscus Morgenstern and Johanna Maria Morgenstern.

                          I assumed that Johanna Maria Morgenstern was the wife of Johannes Morgenstern just using a variation of her name.

                          By 1881, Joannes Morgnestern apparently appears on the census as John Felix b Amsterdam (he wasn't), he's listed as married but there's no wife listed with him.

                          The Sheldens didn't mention a death for Joahnnes' first wife Adrianna in their book. Has anyone else found it?
                          I also wonder what age Adriana Maria(m) Falks was at marriage. The Sheldens don't give her age.Interesting that she may have gone by the name Johanna Maria as well.

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                          • Considering the fluid nature of names among the Morgensterns and through the official church records, I got another idea.

                            Is it possible MJK was engaged to "Morganstone"? Might the couple have gone to the church for a pre-marriage interview or might bans have been posted? If such was the case, I could understand Mary Jane saying/thinking her "real name" was Marie Jeanette. Perhaps she was in love with "Morganstone".

                            My latest opinion is that Mary did not go to France as a prostitute. At minimum I think she was an escort or might she have been a fiancee of "Morganstone"? If descriptions of her clothing are anyway correct and if they describe any of the "costly dresses", it sounds to me like her trip to France was fairly dignified. Maybe she didn't like her future in-laws and that was the "part or purpose" she rejected.

                            We have some indication that Mary's chosen path in life was to be in a relationship with a man; Davies, "Morganstone", Flemming, Barnett. Mrs. P. said she was the nicest girl when sober but quarrelsome when drunk. Though Joe continued to love her, that relationship came to an end during a drunken row when a missile was thrown through the window! Hmmmmm...........?????

                            Another stray thought is that a female friend said Mary was fond of another man named Joe who ill-used her. It is kind of thought that Joe might have been Joe Flemming. What if Mary had planned to marry a Morgenstern to the point she acquired the name Marie Jeanette which meant so much to her that she told Barnett it was her "real name"? Joe/Joseph in Dutch is Jozef. Johannes starts with Jo-. In all languages that use Johannes it appears the J has a Y sound. Jozef comes from French and has a J sound although I know in some languages that J sounds like Y. Anyway.......might an Irish/Welsh girl call a Johannes, Joe? A German variant of Johannes is Joh which I suppose sounds like Yo but how far is that from Joe on the tongue of an English speaker?
                            The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                            • Concerning Johanna Maria as a godmother, she need not be considered the wide of Johannes Franciscus. The first duty of a godparent in the Catholic church is to guarantee that the child will be given Catholic education, meaning catechism and training to be Catholic.

                              If for example, Johannes Franciscus had married a protestant, another woman who was Catholic could be the godmother.
                              The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                              • Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
                                Concerning Johanna Maria as a godmother, she need not be considered the wide of Johannes Franciscus. The first duty of a godparent in the Catholic church is to guarantee that the child will be given Catholic education, meaning catechism and training to be Catholic.

                                If for example, Johannes Franciscus had married a protestant, another woman who was Catholic could be the godmother.
                                Anna, I originally assumed it was John's wife simply because she is named Johanna Maria Morgenstern and there weren't many other women around with the Morgenstern surname in London at that time.

                                John's wife had the middle name Maria, given as Mariam in their marriage record because of the RC convention for latinising names in different ways depending on their role in the event. With brides names ending in 'a' , an 'm' is added to the end.

                                The pair were both godparents at a Catholic baptism in Aug 1874. The only difference in the 1875 baptism is that the name 'Johanna' is used where we would expect to see 'Adrianna' but they are similar sounding names in Dutch.

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