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The Morgenstern Brothers, Felix Family & 79 Pennington Street

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  • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    Anna, I originally assumed it was John's wife simply because she is named Johanna Maria Morgenstern and there weren't many other women around with the Morgenstern surname in London at that time.

    John's wife had the middle name Maria, given as Mariam in their marriage record because of the RC convention for latinising names in different ways depending on their role in the event. With brides names ending in 'a' , an 'm' is added to the end.

    The pair were both godparents at a Catholic baptism in Aug 1874. The only difference in the 1875 baptism is that the name 'Johanna' is used where we would expect to see 'Adrianna' but they are similar sounding names in Dutch.
    Wow! That gets complicated! It seems like a big leap from Johanna to Adrianna and there were so many Adrians/Adriannas/Adrianus, etc. among the Morgensterns. As you say, the names would sound similar. Why isn't anything ever simple with the Morgensterns?
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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    • Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
      Wow! That gets complicated! It seems like a big leap from Johanna to Adrianna and there were so many Adrians/Adriannas/Adrianus, etc. among the Morgensterns. As you say, the names would sound similar. Why isn't anything ever simple with the Morgensterns?
      Elizabeth “Busmen” (Busman?), dressmaker, living in the same building at 21 Portree as John Felix and the Bockees is a mystery associate from Holland born circa 1848 so the same age or so as Johanna Maria/Adriene Maria.

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      • Originally posted by San Fran View Post
        Elizabeth “Busmen” (Busman?), dressmaker, living in the same building at 21 Portree as John Felix and the Bockees is a mystery associate from Holland born circa 1848 so the same age or so as Johanna Maria/Adriene Maria.
        Any chance that seamstress got her own shop somewhere? Like somewhere Mrs. B. could take Mary to collect "costly dresses"?
        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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        • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
          I don't think anyone has ever found out what happened to Joannes Morgenstern's first wife? ...
          The Sheldens didn't mention a death for Joahnnes' first wife Adrianna in their book. Has anyone else found it?
          ...
          It looks like she went back to Holland and married a 29 year old sailor in 1892 when she was 43.

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          • Johannes Morgenstern's first wife's remarriage back in the Netherlands in 1892:

            Adriana Maria Valk

            Netherlands, Archival Indexes, Vital Records

            Name Hendrik Zijlstra
            Event Type Marriage
            Event Date 05 Oct 1892
            Event Place Zaandam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
            Event Place Zaandam
            Gender Male
            Age 28
            Occupation zeeman Sailor
            Birth Year (Estimated) 1864
            Birthplace Amsterdam
            Father's Name Albert Zijlstra
            Father's Occupation agent ballastmij.
            Mother's Name Alida Cornelia de Mooij
            Spouse's Name Adriana Maria Valk
            Spouse's Gender Female
            Spouse's Age 43
            Spouse's Occupation koffiehuishoudster Coffee House Keeper
            Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated) 1849
            Spouse's Birthplace Loon op Zand
            Spouse's Father's Name Simon Valk
            Spouse's Mother's Name Johanna van Riel
            Note weduwe vanvan Hendrick Sibllee (P.S. widow of Hendrick Sibllee)

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            • Good find, San.

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              • Originally posted by San Fran View Post
                Elizabeth “Busmen” (Busman?), dressmaker, living in the same building at 21 Portree as John Felix and the Bockees is a mystery associate from Holland born circa 1848 so the same age or so as Johanna Maria/Adriene Maria.
                Yes, it would be interesting to find out who this woman was.
                We didn't know Adriana's age until you posted the second marriage from 1892?

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                • I have now found a few different records for criminal charges for both John Morgenstern and his brother. I will try and get them translated.

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                  • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                    Yes, it would be interesting to find out who this woman was.
                    We didn't know Adriana's age until you posted the second marriage from 1892?
                    No, I found her birth registration earlier which shows her as born in 1849. Elizabeth Busmen/Busman in recorded as born in 1848. I've already search for her in the records as Busman and variations. I might try marriages as she's "33".

                    Adriana Maria Valk

                    Netherlands, Archival Indexes, Vital Records
                    Name Adriana Maria Valk
                    Event Type Birth
                    Event Date 13 Feb 1849
                    Event Place Loon op Zand, Noord-Brabant, Nederland
                    Event Place Loon op Zand
                    Gender Female
                    Birth Date 13 Feb 1849
                    Father's Name Simon Valk
                    Mother's Name Johanna van Riel

                    The mother's name here is Johanna. You had it as Jean from another record.

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                    • Originally posted by San Fran View Post
                      No, I found her birth registration earlier which shows her as born in 1849. Elizabeth Busmen/Busman in recorded as born in 1848. I've already search for her in the records as Busman and variations. I might try marriages as she's "33".

                      Adriana Maria Valk

                      Netherlands, Archival Indexes, Vital Records
                      Name Adriana Maria Valk
                      Event Type Birth
                      Event Date 13 Feb 1849
                      Event Place Loon op Zand, Noord-Brabant, Nederland
                      Event Place Loon op Zand
                      Gender Female
                      Birth Date 13 Feb 1849
                      Father's Name Simon Valk
                      Mother's Name Johanna van Riel

                      The mother's name here is Johanna. You had it as Jean from another record.
                      Typo, the original gave it as Jeanne and I also mis read Adrianne Maria's birth date as 1840 instead of 1849 at the beginning of the thread. I forgot I'd looked at those records

                      valk 1871.JPG

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                      • Johanna van Riel ought to = Johanna from Riel. As I recall, some of the Morgensterns originated in ________ ___ Riel, something like "Alpen op" which I don't really remember.

                        My point is, is van Riel an actual surname or could there be another surname in addition to van Riel? Like Johanna Morgenstern van Riel for example?
                        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                        • Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
                          Johanna van Riel ought to = Johanna from Riel. As I recall, some of the Morgensterns originated in ________ ___ Riel, something like "Alpen op" which I don't really remember.

                          My point is, is van Riel an actual surname or could there be another surname in addition to van Riel? Like Johanna Morgenstern van Riel for example?
                          Anna, Van Riel is a Dutch toponymic surname.

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                          • Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
                            Johanna van Riel ought to = Johanna from Riel. As I recall, some of the Morgensterns originated in ________ ___ Riel, something like "Alpen op" which I don't really remember.
                            The Morgensterns came from Alphen en Riel, which is a municipality of two villages, Alphen and Riel.

                            Here's the geni tree for Johanna Van Riel, Johannes Morgenstern's mother-in-law. The family goes way back as Van Riel.

                            https://www.geni.com/people/Bernardu...00029974792154

                            Van Alphen is definitely toponymic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Alphen

                            There's a slight possibility that Van Riel comes from a French family. I won't try to make it royal!

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                            • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                              I have now found a few different records for criminal charges for both John Morgenstern and his brother. I will try and get them translated.
                              Both records seem to be related to army service. Marijns Antonius Morgenstern's record is several pages long, all double Dutch. He deserted his post, or his regiment...or his stable
                              This occurred in 1875, one year after being named as godparent at an East End Catholic christening.

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                              • Two of four, full pages of handwritten notes from the records

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