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The Morgenstern Brothers, Felix Family & 79 Pennington Street

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  • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

    I was just about to post that!

    Well spotted. I think it’s very likely the same man.
    There are some workhouse admission and discharge records on the name of one "Frederick Stonner" from the early 1890s..

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    • Originally posted by Jurriaan Maessen View Post

      There are some workhouse admission and discharge records on the name of one "Frederick Stonner" from the early 1890s..
      At one time he was the doorman at the Gardenia Club, a West End ‘disorderly house’.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Jurriaan Maessen View Post

        There are some workhouse admission and discharge records on the name of one "Frederick Stonner" from the early 1890s..
        In 1915 he was admitted to the Whitechapel infirmary from 17, Duval (formerly Dorset) Street.

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        • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
          From the West London Observer 8th May, 1908.
          I think this is certainly the same Ellen. I looked into her a bit more the other day and found the following, which seems to confirm it - particularly the name change to Bullers/Billers.

          1891 census (as Zecker, indexed Leeker by Ancestry) 52 Stanley Road Fulham. (Edited: Accidentally cut off George's mother at first attempt.)

          EllenZecker_1891.jpg

          Report of assault on Ellen Zecher, publican's wife, in Haggerston, mentioning daughter Mary [Islington Gazette, 15 November 1894].

          IslingtonGazette_1894-11-15.jpg

          1901 census 84 Glenthorne Road, Hammersmith (I couldn't find a remarriage):

          EllenBillers_1901.jpg
          Attached Files

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          • Thanks, Chris. They seem to have run a few pubs and got into a few punch-ups. The Ancestry tree I’ve been looking at casts doubt on there having been a marriage with Billers.

            I’ve nabbed this photo of Ellen Carins from the tree to see if anyone has an idea what the label, ‘[S]treet W 140’ might be.
            Attached Files

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            • My guess would be that it might be a mug shot and have something to do with Great Marlborough Street Police Court…

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              • It appears The Factory Lane Gang was, for a time at least, rivalling with the Breezer's Hill Mob.

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                • Originally posted by Jurriaan Maessen View Post
                  It appears The Factory Lane Gang was, for a time at least, rivalling with the Breezer's Hill Mob.
                  It does. :-)

                  A Frederick Stonner, aged 57, was an inmate at a German Farm Colony in Hertfordshire in 1911. His occupation was a skindyer.

                  Skin/fur dyer/dresser. There’s a pattern there.

                  Incidentally, I’ve just left Templecombe Station on my way to Lyme Regis. No sign of a mouldering cricket bag in the shrubbery. That’s for the Druittists pro and anti.






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                  • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

                    It does. :-)

                    A Frederick Stonner, aged 57, was an inmate at a German Farm Colony in Hertfordshire in 1911. His occupation was a skindyer.

                    Skin/fur dyer/dresser. There’s a pattern there.

                    Incidentally, I’ve just left Templecombe Station on my way to Lyme Regis. No sign of a mouldering cricket bag in the shrubbery. That’s for the Druittists pro and anti.





                    Skin dressers and gas stokers: euphemisms for procuring brutes.

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                    • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

                      Incidentally, I’ve just left Templecombe Station on my way to Lyme Regis. No sign of a mouldering cricket bag in the shrubbery. That’s for the Druittists pro and anti.





                      Proof of innocence?

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                      • Originally posted by Jurriaan Maessen View Post

                        Skin dressers and gas stokers: euphemisms for procuring brutes.
                        That’s what I wondered re skin dresser in particular.

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                        • Excellent new information Gary and Juriaan.

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                          • Let me see if I get this right..

                            So we have the April 10 West London Observer-article mentioning a “John Morsten, another stoker, of Victoria Road” as complainant, and we have the April 17th one mentioning the complainant “George Morgenstein” having assaulted Zecher's wife (Ellen), as well as Mayran Morgenstine (assaulting a “Frederick Stonnick”).

                            We also have the location of the incident being described as Factory Lane, at which location the gasstoker’s Zecher’s wife (Ellen Zecher) and “Fitz Stonner” were apparently causing all kinds of trouble.

                            So, the 10 April 1886 article mentions “John Morsten” living at Victoria Road. The April 17 article however mentions no residency for “George Morgenstern” but does provide a location for the finger-biting incident (Factory Lane).
                            So, if George Morgenstein (or “John Morsten”) lived at Victoria Road, Fulham, in 1886, there is a faint possibility Mary Kelly was at that time living at 79 Pennington St. looking after John’s young children, who were listed as living at 79 Pennington Street (if I'm not mistaken).

                            Interestingly, “Adrianus Morgenstern, his first wife Jeannette and family, including Wilhemina, were at 48 Victoria Rd, Fulham in 1881”, wrote Debra Arif on March of 2017 (https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...543#post418543).

                            In addition we have established that Marin(us) Morgenstern lived at 446 Hurwood Road in 1891. The fact that Marin came to his brother’s assistance in the 1886 finger-biting incident at Factory Lane, makes it plausible he was by then already stomping about in Fulham. In fact, we know he did, as his 1881 marriage certificate mentions him living at 57 Victoria Road (Fulham).

                            We also know that John Morgenstern at that time (10 September 1886) was mentioned on young Elizabeth’s (one of the twins) death certificate in relation to 79 Pennington Street as a “journeyman skin dresser” (hm hm). We know that 79 Pennington Street as well as neighboring premises were, at that time, earmarked as being de facto brothels filled to the brim with a variety of German and Belgian girls.

                            And then there’s the 1908 article, mentioning Ellen Zechner as “management” to a disorderly house on Stanley Road.

                            What am I missing?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Jurriaan Maessen View Post
                              Let me see if I get this right..

                              So we have the April 10 West London Observer-article mentioning a “John Morsten, another stoker, of Victoria Road” as complainant, and we have the April 17th one mentioning the complainant “George Morgenstein” as well as Mayran Morgenstine (assaulting a “Frederick Stonnick”).

                              We also have the location of the incident being described as Factory Lane, at which location the gasstoker’s Zecher’s wife (Ellen Zecher) and “Fitz Stonner” were apparently causing all kinds of trouble.

                              So, the 10 April 1886 article mentions “John Morsten” living at Victoria Road. The April 17 article however mentions no residency for “George Morgenstern” but does provide a location for the finger-biting incident (Factory Lane).
                              So, if George Morgenstein (or “John Morsten”) lived at Victoria Road, Fulham, in 1886, there is a faint possibility Mary Kelly was at that time living at 79 Pennington St. looking after John’s young children, who were listed as living at 79 Pennington Street (if I'm not mistaken).

                              Interestingly, “Adrianus Morgenstern, his first wife Jeannette and family, including Wilhemina, were at 48 Victoria Rd, Fulham in 1881”, wrote Debra Arif on March of 2017 (https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...543#post418543).

                              In addition we have established that Marin(us) Morgenstern lived at 446 Hurwood Road in 1891. The fact that Marin came to his brother’s assistance in the 1886 finger-biting incident at Factory Lane, makes it plausible he was by then already stomping about in Fulham. In fact, we know he did, as his 1881 marriage certificate mentions him living at 57 Victoria Road (Fulham).

                              We also know that John Morgenstern at that time (10 September 1886) was mentioned on young Elizabeth’s (one of the twins) death certificate in relation to 79 Pennington Street as a “journeyman skin dresser” (hm hm). We know that 79 Pennington Street as well as neighboring premises were, at that time, earmarked as being de facto brothels filled to the brim with a variety of German and Belgian girls.

                              And then there’s the 1908 article, mentioning Ellen Zechner as “management” to a disorderly house on Stanley Road.

                              What am I missing?
                              Elizabeth Boekee?

                              I suspect JM may have just been visiting Fulham when the fight with Zecher occurred.

                              A very useful summation, Jurriaan. Thanks for that.




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                              • Was ‘Factory’ Lane actually Gas Factory Lane?

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