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The Morgenstern Brothers, Felix Family & 79 Pennington Street

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  • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

    Others may have seen it, I hadn’t!

    A terrific find, Jurriaan.
    Perhaps I should devote a new thread to this. Unfortunately the names are omitted from the article, and the age given for the Welsh girl appears to be off, but it does make for a nice Mary Kelly analogue.

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    • Very interesting Juriaan, it's a pity there are no names.

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      • Thanks. That is interesting. The story was covered by a few other newspapers. Most of the reports don't add anything, but this one from the Evening News (London) of 26 January 1886 adds a little more detail, including which part of Wales she came from:

        EveningNewsLondon_1886-01-26.jpg

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        • Originally posted by Jurriaan Maessen View Post

          Perhaps I should devote a new thread to this. Unfortunately the names are omitted from the article, and the age given for the Welsh girl appears to be off, but it does make for a nice Mary Kelly analogue.
          I have created a seperate thread on the forums about the Welsh girl.

          https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...lly-equivalent

          Back to the Morgensterns on this one!

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          • Originally posted by Jurriaan Maessen View Post

            It says so on the court record summary. I hope to have the 1860-translation ready in the weekend..
            I'm just looking back at this thread and wondering whether this is still on its way or whether I've somehow missed it.

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            • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

              I'm just looking back at this thread and wondering whether this is still on its way or whether I've somehow missed it.
              I hope it is. The Morgenstern Research is ongoing. I have a table at the Felix Archives in Antwerp. Alot of police records involving prostitution and overseas procuring to plough through, but I hope to report some findings in the very near future. Also: there's the 1861 Johannes Morgenstern court case that remains to be transcribed.

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              • Originally posted by Jurriaan Maessen View Post

                I hope it is. The Morgenstern Research is ongoing. I have a table at the Felix Archives in Antwerp. Alot of police records involving prostitution and overseas procuring to plough through, but I hope to report some findings in the very near future. Also: there's the 1861 Johannes Morgenstern court case that remains to be transcribed.
                Many thanks. You're doing a tremendous job. I just wanted to check I hadn't missed anything or misunderstood.

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                • Just a loose thought: as pertaining to the brothelling ventures of Johannes, Marinus, and perhaps Adrianus Lukas (to a lesser extent) there exists, I feel, a period over overlap between the Morgensterns in Fulham and the Morgensterns in SGTE/Limehouse. This "overlap" may have partly cooincided with the time Mary Kelly was in 79 Pennington St. The Wells Place residence- i.e. south of the river- as referenced by Debs at the start of this thread- may have been the initial point of landing for John Morgenstern and Simon Valks in or around 1873. Adrianus and Marinus followed soon after, it seems, both of them settling in Fulham north of the river.
                  The Zecher situation from April 1886 may have been an example of John having some axe to grind after he finally transferred his business to Pennington St. It's either that or he was plying his cover-all paper-profession as a "journeyman skin dresser" for real, which I tend to increasingly doubt.

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                  • One of the problems is finding Johannes in the Belgian immigration records. We have his brothers on record, as well as Simon Valks, but we do not have evidence (yet!) of Johannes Morgenstern on any Belgian record, which seems odd if he was the trailblazer for the move to England and both Marinus and Adrianus did go through Antwerp in the early 1870s.

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                    • Originally posted by Jurriaan Maessen View Post
                      Just a loose thought: as pertaining to the brothelling ventures of Johannes, Marinus, and perhaps Adrianus Lukas (to a lesser extent) there exists, I feel, a period over overlap between the Morgensterns in Fulham and the Morgensterns in SGTE/Limehouse. This "overlap" may have partly cooincided with the time Mary Kelly was in 79 Pennington St. The Wells Place residence- i.e. south of the river- as referenced by Debs at the start of this thread- may have been the initial point of landing for John Morgenstern and Simon Valks in or around 1873. Adrianus and Marinus followed soon after, it seems, both of them settling in Fulham north of the river.
                      The Zecher situation from April 1886 may have been an example of John having some axe to grind after he finally transferred his business to Pennington St. It's either that or he was plying his cover-all paper-profession as a "journeyman skin dresser" for real, which I tend to increasingly doubt.
                      Hi Jurriaan,

                      The Wells Place in question was in Whitechapel, just north of Cable Street, the other side of Backchurch Lane from Pinchin Street.

                      Gary

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                      • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

                        Hi Jurriaan,

                        The Wells Place in question was in Whitechapel, just north of Cable Street, the other side of Backchurch Lane from Pinchin Street.

                        Gary
                        Ah, thanks for putting me straight!

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                        • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post

                          Robert, isn't he a descendant of Wilhemina? He was the one who said Wilhemina said she was brought up in a brothel wasn't he?
                          Adrianus, his first wife Jeannette and family, including Wilhemina, were at 48 Victoria Rd, Fulham in 1881. Wilhemina's birth place is given as Fulham so her birth at Stanley Rd makes sense.
                          If Wilhelmina was brought up in a Fulham brothel run by either Adrianus or any other of the Morgenstern brothers (most likely Marinus), it would appear that there may have been two branches of the Morgenstern brotheling enterprise during the 1880s: one in or near Victoria Road/Standley Rd and one in the Docks area (probably run by Johannes). If these branches operated at more or less the same period in these different areas, that kind of expands the parameters of our investigation, and puts the Zecher incident in an interesting context, especially since George Morgenstein/John Morsten is actually Johannes, as he indeed appears to be.

                          Does anyone know where Wilhelmina was born and/or brought up, and where the documented evidence of her whereabouts in the early to mid 1880s can be accessed?

                          Thanks in advance.

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                          • Originally posted by Jurriaan Maessen View Post

                            If Wilhelmina was brought up in a Fulham brothel run by either Adrianus or any other of the Morgenstern brothers (most likely Marinus), it would appear that there may have been two branches of the Morgenstern brotheling enterprise during the 1880s: one in or near Victoria Road/Standley Rd and one in the Docks area (probably run by Johannes). If these branches operated at more or less the same period in these different areas, that kind of expands the parameters of our investigation, and puts the Zecher incident in an interesting context, especially since George Morgenstein/John Morsten is actually Johannes, as he indeed appears to be.

                            Does anyone know where Wilhelmina was born and/or brought up, and where the documented evidence of her whereabouts in the early to mid 1880s can be accessed?

                            Thanks in advance.
                            It would be interesting to know where that brothel was and who ran it. It was supposed to be in Limehouse, not Fulham.

                            But as far as I know, her history is a complete blank between 1881 (when she was 4) and her marriage in 1897, apart from the statement by Grant Fenwick:
                            "I have heard a story that Wilhelmina, when she was a child, was brought up in a brothel in Limehouse."
                            https://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/8806.html (March 23, 2005)

                            There should be an entry somewhere in the 1891 census. She wasn't with her father, then calling himself Adrianus Felix and living at 20 Cordelia Street with his "wife" Elizabeth and daughter Anna. There could be entries in school registers.

                            As no one has found her, presumably she may be listed under a different name - perhaps even a different surname and a different given name, as her birth was registered under the given names Eslena Diena Wilhelmina according to the index, while in 1881 she was Wilhelmina L.

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                            • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post



                              There should be an entry somewhere in the 1891 census. She wasn't with her father, then calling himself Adrianus Felix and living at 20 Cordelia Street with his "wife" Elizabeth and daughter Anna. There could be entries in school registers.
                              I think the same is true of her sister, Maria (bc1875) I don't think there is an 1891 entry for her either and nothing much else until her marriage in 1901.

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                              • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post

                                I think the same is true of her sister, Maria (bc1875) I don't think there is an 1891 entry for her either and nothing much else until her marriage in 1901.
                                That's a good point. Thinking she should be easier to find in the census than Wilhelmina, having been born in the Netherlands, I couldn't resist having a quick search, and this looks like her in 1891, in service at 57 King's Road, St Luke's Chelsea. I would never have thought of searching for the spelling "Morjernstein":

                                MariaMorgenstern.jpg

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