Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Morgenstern Brothers, Felix Family & 79 Pennington Street

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

    Ah yes, I see. The houses mentioned in 1844 would presumably have been built after the railway cut off the northern part of the land.

    The dates on the ordnance survey maps below seem a bit strange, but they would suggest the gasometers came down in or soon before 1890. Maybe trade directories would show when the Commercial Gas Company left Johnson Street. The four terraced houses shown on the latest map are still there, but no date is visible on Google Street View.

    JohnsonStGasworks.jpg
    Thanks, Chris, that shows the situation very neatly.

    The mystery that still needs to be resolved is whether the gasometers would have been there when Kelly was living with whichever Morgenstern it was she lived with ‘near Stepney Gas Works.’ Presumably around 1886/7.

    Comment


    • I’ve just seen an 1884 business directory which only shows the company in Wapping and Bow.

      I’m still clinging on by my fingernails, though. What I’d need to see is evidence of when the gas holders were dismantled.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
        I’ve just seen an 1884 business directory which only shows the company in Wapping and Bow.

        I’m still clinging on by my fingernails, though. What I’d need to see is evidence of when the gas holders were dismantled.
        I'm not sure directories are going to be conclusive in any case. Would there be any need for a site housing just a couple of gasometers to be listed in a trade directory?

        But equally there wouldn't be any work there for a gas stoker (if I understand correctly). I think it would make more sense if this were Adrianus and he was living near the gas works because he worked there.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

          I'm not sure directories are going to be conclusive in any case. Would there be any need for a site housing just a couple of gasometers to be listed in a trade directory?

          But equally there wouldn't be any work there for a gas stoker (if I understand correctly). I think it would make more sense if this were Adrianus and he was living near the gas works because he worked there.
          All Barnett tells us is that Kelly lived with a Morganstone near ‘Stepney’ gasworks. He doesn’t say it was where the man Morganstone worked.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

            All Barnett tells us is that Kelly lived with a Morganstone near ‘Stepney’ gasworks. He doesn’t say it was where the man Morganstone worked.
            I realise Barnett doesn't say that. I just think it would make sense if it were the case.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

              I realise Barnett doesn't say that. I just think it would make sense if it were the case.
              So she’s living with another brother in an area not renowned for prostitution near gas works that weren’t in Stepney?

              For me it would make sense if she lived with Johannes in Cornwall Street/Station Place.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

                So she’s living with another brother in an area not renowned for prostitution near gas works that weren’t in Stepney?
                I mean it would make more sense for the gasworks to be mentioned by Barnett if there had been a reason for Mary Kelly to mention the gasworks to him. Such as that Morganstone had been working at the gasworks.

                I think pretty much any theory about this is in the realm of speculation, and involves difficulties. Was the neighbourhood of Stepney Gas Works noted for prostitution?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

                  I mean it would make more sense for the gasworks to be mentioned by Barnett if there had been a reason for Mary Kelly to mention the gasworks to him. Such as that Morganstone had been working at the gasworks.

                  I think pretty much any theory about this is in the realm of speculation, and involves difficulties. Was the neighbourhood of Stepney Gas Works noted for prostitution?
                  The Johnson Street/Hardinge Street Gas Works was close to Station Place.

                  Comment


                  • I fail to see any reason whatsoever to doubt that the gasworks referred to were the ones on Ben Johnson Road - Stepney Gas Works - The Stepney Gas Works - operated by the Commercial Gas Company.
                    where is the doubt?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

                      The Johnson Street/Hardinge Street Gas Works was close to Station Place.
                      Yes, but if you're advocating anything other than the Stepney Gas Works, I don't think you can try to rule out other gas works because they don't fit what Barnett said. It's either the Stepney Gas Works or else what Barnett said was wrong.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

                        Yes, but if you're advocating anything other than the Stepney Gas Works, I don't think you can try to rule out other gas works because they don't fit what Barnett said. It's either the Stepney Gas Works or else what Barnett said was wrong.
                        It makes more sense to me that JM moved and MJK accompanied him than that Adrianus was either her pimp or her lover.

                        The Ratcliff Gas works were actually in SGE and owned by the company that ran the main Stepney Gas Works. The SGE/ St Thomas Stepney boundary ran along Hardinge Street.

                        No mental gymnastics are required for Barnett’s description to match Kelly living with JM near Shadwell Station. Less, in my opinion, than having her live with Adrianus in Bow.
                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                        • Don't get me wrong. I don't think there's enough information to say any of these ideas is right or wrong. (Maybe not even Rubenhold's, though she has to suggest Fleming may have lived in a different road from the one Barnett said, to get him nearer the gas works).

                          I'm sure you can make a case that Stepney Gas Works might have been confused with Ratcliff Gas Works, but they're not the same thing,

                          Comment


                          • But for sure, there was a lot of gas in the east end, especially around Stepney.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

                              I mean it would make more sense for the gasworks to be mentioned by Barnett if there had been a reason for Mary Kelly to mention the gasworks to him. Such as that Morganstone had been working at the gasworks.
                              Having thought it over a bit more, I think it makes more sense if it was John she was living with near the gas works.

                              Comment


                              • The Harford Street Gas Works c1920
                                You do not have permission to view this gallery.
                                This gallery has 1 photos.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X