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The Morgenstern Brothers, Felix Family & 79 Pennington Street

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  • #76
    Probably the wrong place to suggest a scenario but I can't help it...

    MJK and Mrs. Buki/Boeku/Bockee/Bouquet went to the French lady and demanded Mary's box of costly dresses. Mrs. Buki was a seamstress as was Elizabeth Phoenix/Felix. (Anna Felix was a milliner.) Is it possible Mrs. Buki was helping to retrieve dresses she had made that weren't paid for? Is it possible that Mary met all these people through dresses and dress making? Might women from the continent have had some special skills in dress making that would be sought by higher end clientele? I would be awfully curious who these women worked for.
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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    • #77
      There was a Caroline Morgenstern, west end dressmaker, who died 1915 leaving about 1800.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
        There was a Caroline Morgenstern, west end dressmaker, who died 1915 leaving about 1800.
        I found a list of tailors and dressmakers in London but I had trouble making sense of it. There were a lot of them, many if not most were Jewish. I did not pick up names known to us.

        Much of the clothing had to be made so there was a lot of work to employ a lot of people. Sometimes on the census we find draper's establishments that employed many people. I have always wondered what sort of life went on there. I would assume draping, then as now, applies to higher fashion.

        I feel like we are at the point of understanding something about Mary but we aren't quite there yet. I think our understanding of Mary has been skewed by suppositions that began in 1888 reportage, that she was a prostitute who had fallen very low through living a bad life. There had to be a moral inserted for public consumption. I tend to see her as a working class girl who got into prostitution, and while she continued to earn at least part of her living as a prostitute, she also sought a level of normalcy in the working class.

        I am intrigued with Mrs. Phoenix saying Mary was, "an artist of no mean degree." When one gets into dress making and millinery there is a level of artistic skill needed. Was Mary working with the seamstresses in some capacity? She seems to have had a history of getting in trouble for drinking. Maybe she was learning the seamstress or millinery trade but got herself into trouble.
        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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        • #79
          I think I have a lot of wrong ideas about seamstresses and milliners. Chances are they were women who worked from their homes. Such women in a secure environment could earn pocket money or aid the family resources. If on their own they were likely to starve. I think of a milliner as one who created and decorated bonnets but in reality a milliner could have worked from home hand sewing "cap fronts", the front part of bonnets, and hoping someone would buy them.
          The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Libby Isted View Post



            Ive noticed on the 1881 census for Johannes Morgenstern (21 Portree St), he is listed as John Felix b. Amsterdam (if this is indeed him)

            There seems to be an Elizabeth at the same address, surname beginning with B but i cant read it, aged 33, dressmaker, b. Holland.

            Also at number 21 are the family above, Louis and Elizabeth Bouquet, also b. Amsterdam. Could this be Mrs Buki/Morgenstern with her first husband?
            I hadn't realised how close Portree Street was to the Poplar Gas Works.

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            • #81
              John (Jan, Johannes) Morgenstern

              I am descended from John Morgenstern and Elizabeth Boeku. Their daughter Louisa had two daughters herself, Louisa Elizabeth and Clara Agnes. Unfortunately Louisa was run over by a bus in 1932 aged 19 but my nan, Clara, went on to marry and have my dad. My nan had always said we had dutch ancestry but it has only recently come to light the links, which i found on here (thank you!).

              Earlier in the week i came across a box of photos belonging to my dad and have managed to find a couple of things. Firstly this is two photos of Louisa Morgenstern and secondly the burial record for John Morgenstern (although i still cannot find a death record for him). I hope they will be of interest to some of you.
              Attached Files

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              • #82
                Hi Libby


                Thank you so much for posting this material.


                Re John, could it be him registered second quarter 1900 West Ham as John Morgerstein?
                Attached Files

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                • #83
                  Libby: Thank you so much for sharing these pictures and the certificate. It helps bring to life these people.

                  It appears Louisa was a prosperous person. Beautiful clothes and studio pictures. I wonder if the fine tailoring on her dress was done by Mrs. Boeku?

                  She or someone in the family could have made the lace collar. It looks like Irish crochet and doesn't look like commercial lace. That what looks like a choker around her neck is the made of the same stitch that edges the collar front. I would guess the choker is in a different color and made of a silky thread. Now I am curious so I will have to try to find that stitch. The finest Irish crochet work at this time is done by Russian women who use many unusual stitches and techniques but I have never seen this.
                  The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                  • #84
                    Re the clothes - what Anna said.

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                    • #85
                      Fantastic photos, Libby!

                      Thanks for sharing them.

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                      • #86
                        Thanks for posting all this stuff, Libby! Those photographs are beautiful.

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                        • #87
                          This is Elizabeth Boeku and Louisa Morgenstern in 1911:
                          1911 Essex West Ham Canning Town

                          Census form signed by Bertha Morganstin 33 Prince Of Wales Rd, Custom house
                          Bertha Morginstin, head, 59, widow, was married 31 years, No. of children born -3, children still alive 1, children now dead 2, no occupation (at home) b Holland (805) resident Dutch
                          Luesia Morginstin, daughter, 24, single factory hand 997, b Poplar London, British
                          William Freeman, boarder, 54 single dock labourer 080 Woolwich Kent

                          Nationality codes - 805 = Holland Foreigners Residents
                          Occupation codes - 997 = 997 Factory - Hands, Labourers (undefined)
                          080 080 Dock Labourers, Wharf Labourers

                          signature.JPG

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                          • #88
                            Was the Louisa in the photos born in Rich Street?

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                            • #89
                              That's brilliant Debra, that's the bit I have missing. She married in 1911 but I wasn't sure what happened between John dying and her marriage.

                              Gary, She was born at 79 Pennington Street.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Libby Isted View Post
                                That's brilliant Debra, that's the bit I have missing. She married in 1911 but I wasn't sure what happened between John dying and her marriage.

                                Gary, She was born at 79 Pennington Street.
                                You're welcome Libby. I found it a while back but never posted it but thought it might interest you if you hadn't seen it.

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