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The Morgenstern Brothers, Felix Family & 79 Pennington Street

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  • Originally posted by Libby Isted View Post
    just to let you all know, i contacted St Ptricks Roman Catholic Cemetery in Leytonstone to ask for anymore information about John Morgensterns burial.

    They replied to let me know that he had been buried in a public grave, an area where he was buried with others he wasnt related to. This type of grave are reused over time and it has been the case at St Patricks.

    He was buried on 30/06/1900 and actually recorded as John Morgenstein. the fee for his burial was £1.05
    Thanks for that Libby. That's a similar to story to the final resting place of Mary Jane Kelly as you've probably read about.

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    • Thanks Libby !
      To Join JTR Forums :
      Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

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      • Eliesabeth Bluma/Boekü/Morgenstern

        Just looking back at the 1911 census signed as Bertha Morginstin as she states that she had 3 children born alive, 1 child still living, 2 who have died.
        We know she had 3 children with Louis Boekü (Emily, Louisa and Louis and that Louisa definitely died in 1884) and then the twins with Morgenstern (Elizabeth and Louisa and that Elizabeth died in 1886).
        Why do you think she would write 3 and not 5? Could the twins not be her children?
        Attached Files

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        • Hi Libby


          Surely she's not being asked how many children she's ever had, but how many of this marriage i.e Morgenstern or variant.


          So it looks to me as though she had a third Morgenstern child, who died. There was a Solomon Morgenstern born Q1 STGITE 1888 and a Solomon Morgenstern dies the following quarter at St Saviour. I can't find any acknowledgement of Solomon's birth at the GRO. Probably mistranscribed somehow but no idea as what.

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          • Hi Robert
            Yes, you’re right, I’d managed to completely miss the ‘present’ marriage bit!
            Thanks for this, I’ll have another look at it

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            • With the aid of google translate, I've spent the last couple of hours deciphering the Dutch population records for the Morgenstern family from the 1870's.

              I found Aadrain Lucas listed with his known parents and siblings, it also confirms his date of marriage. Oddly, he has two different dates of birth both entered on the form for birthdate- 14th April 1844 and 17th April 1848!
              The form also confirmed that he had previously lived in Antwerp, Belgium.

              Also listed is Marins Adrians, also known as Marinus Antonius.

              I cannot find a John Francis Morgenstern in the population records at all though. I will keep looking.

              Under the 'denomination' section of the form the letters RC are entered which I presume is Roman Catholic? Even though Katholiek appears to be the Dutch word.

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              • Debs, are you sure the 'RC' wasn't in the translated record? This site gives RK for the Dutch :




                https://support.ancestry.ca/articles...tch-to-English

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                • No it's in the original Dutch, Robert.
                  The heading is religious denomination.

                  rc.JPG

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                  • I managed to find Johannes Franciscus listed with the whole family in another census.

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                    • It could be the abbreviation for Roomschen, which, I presume again, is Roman Catholic?

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                      • Presumably. It's a bit bewildering.

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                        • Roomsche is Roman Catholic in Dutch. It's odd that it might be abbreviated to RC but I can't think what else it could be and the Morgensterns did attend St Mary and Michael's Roman Catholic church in Commercial Rd in the 1870's.

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                          • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                            Roomsche is Roman Catholic in Dutch. It's odd that it might be abbreviated to RC
                            To distinguish it from "R" for the Dutch Reformed Church, which was the dominant church in Holland at the time, perhaps? (I'm guessing about "R", by the way.) "RoomsChe" might explain the abbreviation "RC", as the "C" can't be for Catholic or Church, since these words start with a "K" in Dutch.
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen"
                            (F. Nietzsche)

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                            • Gareth, Debs, there used to be a Dutch poster on Casebook called Frank Iploo, and I've a feeling he may now be called simply Frank. Unfortunately when I go on Casebook now the members list doesn't appear. If we could find a Dutch poster then maybe this could be sorted.

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                              • Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                                If we could find a Dutch poster then maybe this could be sorted.
                                That would be our best bet, assuming the relevant 19th Century Dutch abbreviations are still in use. I tried looking for a Dutch equivalent of acronymfinder.com to no avail, and a perusal of various online lists of Dutch acronyms has so far proven unsuccessful.
                                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                                "Suche Nullen"
                                (F. Nietzsche)

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