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The Morgenstern Brothers, Felix Family & 79 Pennington Street

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  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    Phew, thanks for finding that, Gary. I had a memory that I got the death certificate but it isn't on my laptop and I couldn't find it on any thread so thought it was my memory again!

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  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

    Yes, I have looked at a fair few of them but, as you suggest, they are labyrinthine ...
    It could do with being drawn together in some way. Although it may be a rather silly title, ‘The Breezer’s Hill Mob’, is an intriguing concept (in my opinion). Especially when you consider that MJK may have passed through their hands on her way from the West End to Spitalfields and oblivion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chris Phillips
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

    The trouble with this topic in particular is the crossovers to others. So you’ll find threads on Morganstern/Boekee, Maywood, Miller, the Nod(d)ings and geographical ones about Breezer’s Hill/Pennington Street, Rich Street etc where the various characters are mentioned.
    Yes, I have looked at a fair few of them but, as you suggest, they are labyrinthine ...

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  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

    Ah, thanks. I shouldn't have made the mistake of thinking I had absorbed all the information that's been posted here about the Morgensterns!

    It's a shame that when they correct an entry in the GRO index they don't leave a cross-referenced entry under the same spelling as the original index, because that just gives the impression they have missed an entry. Particularly when the "correction" is wrong.
    The trouble with this topic in particular is the crossovers to others. So you’ll find threads on Morganstern/Boekee, Maywood, Miller, the Nod(d)ings and geographical ones about Breezer’s Hill/Pennington Street, Rich Street etc where the various characters are mentioned.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chris Phillips
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post

    Thanks for mentioning this, Chris. I may get in touch with them over a couple of births that I have found are missing from the GRO index.
    Re solomon Morgenstern, Gary posted about the LIEBELMAN maiden name given in the GRO and that this meant the child was not a child of John and Elizabeth asMorgenstern family descendant, Libby, had thought he was. It is on a thread about the Millers.
    Ah, thanks. I shouldn't have made the mistake of thinking I had absorbed all the information that's been posted here about the Morgensterns!

    It's a shame that when they correct an entry in the GRO index they don't leave a cross-referenced entry under the same spelling as the original index, because that just gives the impression they have missed an entry. Particularly when the "correction" is wrong.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Wasn’t there at one time a photo of JM on Ancestry that was subsequently taken down?

    I’d love to have a copy of that to set beside the photo of the younger Maywood.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    DEA4D313-C93B-4B53-A05B-A9E6B3FF4CE2.jpeg
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post

    Thanks for mentioning this, Chris. I may get in touch with them over a couple of births that I have found are missing from the GRO index.
    Re solomon Morgenstern, Gary posted about the LIEBELMAN maiden name given in the GRO and that this meant the child was not a child of John and Elizabeth asMorgenstern family descendant, Libby, had thought he was. It is on a thread about the Millers.
    I think you obtained his death cert., Debs.

    https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/vict...ler#post480978

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

    I noticed that there was a mechanism to notify the GRO of errors and omissions in the index, and was pleasantly surprised to find that they responded in about a week. They still don't list it as Morgenstern, which is certainly what the printed index says, but as Morgenstem, which must be wrong. I assume they have gone to the original entry and misread Morgenstein (and that Morgenstein had originally been misread as Morgenstern - possibly!). But in any case the mother's maiden name is given as LIEBELMANN, so unless they've really excelled themselves it's not a third child of John and Elizabeth.
    Thanks for mentioning this, Chris. I may get in touch with them over a couple of births that I have found are missing from the GRO index.
    Re solomon Morgenstern, Gary posted about the LIEBELMAN maiden name given in the GRO and that this meant the child was not a child of John and Elizabeth asMorgenstern family descendant, Libby, had thought he was. It is on a thread about the Millers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chris Phillips
    replied
    Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
    Hi Libby


    Surely she's not being asked how many children she's ever had, but how many of this marriage i.e Morgenstern or variant.


    So it looks to me as though she had a third Morgenstern child, who died. There was a Solomon Morgenstern born Q1 STGITE 1888 and a Solomon Morgenstern dies the following quarter at St Saviour. I can't find any acknowledgement of Solomon's birth at the GRO. Probably mistranscribed somehow but no idea as what.
    I noticed that there was a mechanism to notify the GRO of errors and omissions in the index, and was pleasantly surprised to find that they responded in about a week. They still don't list it as Morgenstern, which is certainly what the printed index says, but as Morgenstem, which must be wrong. I assume they have gone to the original entry and misread Morgenstein (and that Morgenstein had originally been misread as Morgenstern - possibly!). But in any case the mother's maiden name is given as LIEBELMANN, so unless they've really excelled themselves it's not a third child of John and Elizabeth.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    It might be better to move the gasworks topic onto the Life’s a Gas thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Here’s an extract from Bacon’s London Atlas of 1888. You’ll see the gasometers of the Commercial Gas Company between Johnson Street and Hardinge Street (lower right). Johnson Street was Cornelia Van Roon’s address in 1879 when she married Bernard Valks.

    Dean Street, where Bernard and Cornelia were living in 1881 is top left, a turning off the Commercial Road. Tarling Street was also home to some Van Roons.

    Shadwell Station can be seen with Station Place and Cornwall Street below it.

    I’ve extended the map to the south of Cable Street to show the proximity of the area to the Ratcliff Highway (here shown as High Street). The area outlined by Commercial Road and Cable Street, Watney Street and Harding Street is very compact and contained the following ingredients:

    Commercial Gas Works,
    Stepney,
    Valks (and by extension Morgenstern),
    Maywood,
    Miller,
    Blair,
    Nod(d)ing,
    and a Maria Harvey...

    Why not Kelly?

    42141AB0-2F61-4EF3-9F89-DFE3F7A9A13E.jpeg

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Thanks Gary, that sounds plausible to me too. I'll read up more tomorrow hopefully.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    My point here is that we have an alternative gasworks to consider as the one opposite which MJK lived with ‘Morganstone’, in an area where the extended Valks family lived and where the Nod(d)ing clan, the Maywoods, Millers and Blairs briefly lived.

    From a comment I saw on Casebook the other day, it seems set in stone that it was the Harford Street works that was being referred to by Joe Carnarvon/Carmarthen Barnett. I’m not so sure.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    Thanks for posting this latest interesting information, Gary.
    Debs,

    I see that not only was Johannes a witness to Bernard and Cornelia’s marriage, but their first child was named Cornelius Johannes Franciscus Valks. Bernard and Cornelia seems to have initially settled in the Dean Street/Tarling Street area.

    I’m trying to find out at what point the Johnson Street gasworks were demolished. They had been taken over by the Commercial Gas Co. by 1875, but do not appear on the 1895 OS map.

    If you have a look at the first map here, you’ll see that the Gasworks were built where STGITE, Ratcliff and Stepney meet. The parish boundary between St Geo’s and Ratcliff runs down Hardinge Street, and the Stepney boundary runs roughly horizontally through Steel’s Lane* and the clothing factory.

    https://alondoninheritance.com/londo...rdinge-street/

    IMO, this gas works might well have been described as the Commercial Gas Works, Stepney - while it was operational and/or its gasometers were visible. (I have found one example from 1868 of a property being offered for sale in Johnson Street, Stepney, opposite large Gas Works.)

    *A maternity hospital was opened on the block above Steel’s Lane, facing on to the Commercial Road. It is now the Steels Lane Medical Centre (see below). It was where I took my first breath.


    B945BAD3-6845-4DE4-83D9-E53EA939CC57.jpeg

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  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Thanks for posting this latest interesting information, Gary.

    Leave a comment:

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