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  • Mary's RIGHT arm - fake news!

    This is a continual theme I have encountered and it's one that demonstrates how inaccuracies perpetuate and become 'fact'. I have encountered this error on all the JTR forums and tried to correct it when I can, but I just read this blog post from whitechapeljack.com and feel that a thread of its own is called for.
    whitechapeljack.com

    I am referring to the myth that Mary's right arm was either almost cut off or, in fact, totally removed from her body.

    In the blog post from Whitechapel Jack: (bold & italics mine)
    Kelly?s corpse was nude except for a chemise and lying in the middle of the bed that sat flush against the apartment wall. She was inclined slightly to the left side of the bed, and her head was resting on the left cheek. Her right arm had been partially disconnected from the torso; her legs were spread wide and placed at right angles.
    Kelly's right arm was NOT partially disconnected from her body. I was totally attached and the killer had made no attempt to remove the arm(s).

    This erroneous 'fact' stems from the single word that Dr Bond used in his autopsy report: (bold & italics mine)

    The body was lying naked in the middle of the bed, the shoulders flat, but the axis of the body inclined to the left side of the bed. The head was turned on the left cheek. The left arm was close to the body with the forearm flexed at a right angle & lying across the abdomen. the right arm was slightly abducted from the body & rested on the mattress, the elbow bent & the forearm supine with the fingers clenched. The legs were wide apart, the left thigh at right angles to the trunk & the right forming an obtuse angle with the pubes.
    Lay-people (non-medical) are included to infer that 'abducted' means 'removed' but this is CERTAINLY not the case. the word 'abducted' in this report (written by a seasoned medical professional) simply means 'moved away from the midline). These are exact medical words and phrases used by medical professionals to convey the exact meaning of what they write.
    https://teachmeanatomy.info/wp-conte...otation-CC.jpg

    Medical professionals are all taught the standard anatomical position of a body. We use words like midline, proximal, distal, medial, lateral, cephalic, caudal, axial, adduct, abduct, flexion, extension... and loads more.

    Abduct means moving away from the midline and Dr Bond meant exactly that when he wrote his report.
    LINK

    Mary's arm (both) was in no way removed or partially removed - or even attempted to be removed.

    Please help stamp out this myth by correcting people when you see them repeat this error.
    thanks

    NB:
    Who runs/owns the Whitechapel Jack website? They need to be told of this inaccuracy so they can edit the blog post. Have you got 'connections', Howard?
    ------------------------------------------------------
    http://autumnofterror.com | http://JtR3D.com

  • #2
    Richard:

    Here's a contact form :

    https://whitechapeljack.com/contact/
    To Join JTR Forums :
    Contact [email protected]

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by RichardH View Post

      Lay-people (non-medical) are included to infer that 'abducted' means 'removed' but this is CERTAINLY not the case. the word 'abducted' in this report (written by a seasoned medical professional) simply means 'moved away from the midline). These are exact medical words and phrases used by medical professionals to convey the exact meaning of what they write.
      https://teachmeanatomy.info/wp-conte...otation-CC.jpg

      Quite correct, anyone looking for the meaning in Google should add "medical term" after the word.
      Which brings up this page:
      https://teachmeanatomy.info/the-basi...s-of-movement/
      Which describes the meaning:

      Abduction is a movement away from the midline ? just as abducting someone is to take them away. For example, abduction of the shoulder raises the arms out to the sides of the body.
      Adduction is a movement towards the midline. Adduction of the hip squeezes the legs together.
      In fingers and toes, the midline used is not the midline of the body, but of the hand and foot respectively. Therefore, abducting the fingers spreads them out.

      I have always believed we can see Kelly's right hand, finger & thumb at least, on the far side of the bed, towards the left side of this pic.



      We can even trace where her forearm & elbow must be. Her right arm is pretty much perpendicular away from her body towards the partition.
      Regards, Jon S.
      "
      The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
      " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
      Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by RichardH View Post
        This is a continual theme I have encountered and it's one that demonstrates how inaccuracies perpetuate and become 'fact'. I have encountered this error on all the JTR forums and tried to correct it when I can, but I just read this blog post from whitechapeljack.com and feel that a thread of its own is called for.
        whitechapeljack.com

        I am referring to the myth that Mary's right arm was either almost cut off or, in fact, totally removed from her body.

        In the blog post from Whitechapel Jack: (bold & italics mine)


        Kelly's right arm was NOT partially disconnected from her body. I was totally attached and the killer had made no attempt to remove the arm(s).

        This erroneous 'fact' stems from the single word that Dr Bond used in his autopsy report: (bold & italics mine)



        Lay-people (non-medical) are included to infer that 'abducted' means 'removed' but this is CERTAINLY not the case. the word 'abducted' in this report (written by a seasoned medical professional) simply means 'moved away from the midline). These are exact medical words and phrases used by medical professionals to convey the exact meaning of what they write.
        https://teachmeanatomy.info/wp-conte...otation-CC.jpg

        Medical professionals are all taught the standard anatomical position of a body. We use words like midline, proximal, distal, medial, lateral, cephalic, caudal, axial, adduct, abduct, flexion, extension... and loads more.

        Abduct means moving away from the midline and Dr Bond meant exactly that when he wrote his report.
        LINK

        Mary's arm (both) was in no way removed or partially removed - or even attempted to be removed.

        Please help stamp out this myth by correcting people when you see them repeat this error.
        thanks

        NB:
        Who runs/owns the Whitechapel Jack website? They need to be told of this inaccuracy so they can edit the blog post. Have you got 'connections', Howard?
        Richard,

        Are you familiar with the term ‘dresum’? The transcript of Dr Phillips’ examination of Alice McKenzie speaks of ‘three distinct cicatrices on Dresum of left forearm’.

        Gary

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by RichardH View Post
          the word 'abducted' in this report (written by a seasoned medical professional) simply means 'moved away from the midline).

          I've lost count of the number of times I've corrected that mistaken impression.
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen"
          (F. Nietzsche)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
            Richard,

            Are you familiar with the term ?dresum?? The transcript of Dr Phillips? examination of Alice McKenzie speaks of ?three distinct cicatrices on Dresum of left forearm?.

            Gary
            Nope, Never heard of that one. Could it be 'Dorsum'?
            https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/dorsum
            ------------------------------------------------------
            http://autumnofterror.com | http://JtR3D.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
              Quite correct, anyone looking for the meaning in Google should add "medical term" after the word.
              Which brings up this page:
              https://teachmeanatomy.info/the-basi...s-of-movement/
              Which describes the meaning:

              Abduction is a movement away from the midline ? just as abducting someone is to take them away. For example, abduction of the shoulder raises the arms out to the sides of the body.
              Adduction is a movement towards the midline. Adduction of the hip squeezes the legs together.
              In fingers and toes, the midline used is not the midline of the body, but of the hand and foot respectively. Therefore, abducting the fingers spreads them out.

              I have always believed we can see Kelly's right hand, finger & thumb at least, on the far side of the bed, towards the left side of this pic.



              We can even trace where her forearm & elbow must be. Her right arm is pretty much perpendicular away from her body towards the partition.
              At first, I too thought this was Mary's right arm. But now I believe it is just folds of sheets. Also, The report states her right arm was 'slightly' abducted from the body so if that WAS her right hand/arm we were looking at, it is clearly adducted very far from her midline - almost out-stretched. So, I'm pretty certain that's not her hand/arm/elbow.
              ------------------------------------------------------
              http://autumnofterror.com | http://JtR3D.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by RichardH View Post
                At first, I too thought this was Mary's right arm. But now I believe it is just folds of sheets. Also, The report states her right arm was 'slightly' abducted from the body so if that WAS her right hand/arm we were looking at, it is clearly adducted very far from her midline - almost out-stretched. So, I'm pretty certain that's not her hand/arm/elbow.

                In which case the obvious question comes to mind, then why is it not in the photo?
                To be abducted to any measurable degree, it must be visible.
                If it is so close to the body to be merely inches away, then it does not meet the requirement to be 'abducted'.
                Regards, Jon S.
                "
                The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Would we see MJK's arm if it was slightly abducted at 20-30 degrees?

                  https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig2_282352011

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I suspect the overarching problem is, we have always assumed the photograph was taken of a body before it was touched by anyone.

                    Whereas, in press reports we are told quite clearly that the doctors entered and conducted a preliminary examination before the photographer was called.

                    Dr. Phillips, the divisional surgeon of police, soon arrived, and was followed by Dr. Bond, of Westminster, divisional surgeon of the A division, Dr. J. R. Gabe, of Mecklenburgh-square, and two or three other surgeons. They made a preliminary examination of the body and sent for a photographer, who made several photographs of the remains.
                    https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18881110.html

                    As Dr. Bond was one of the first to enter the room, then we might be safe in assuming he is describing the body as it was found.
                    However, the photograph of the body on the bed was taken some considerable time later - and more importantly, subsequent to a preliminary examination by several doctors.

                    The photograph of the body on the bed does not show precisely how the body was found when the door was forced open.
                    Regards, Jon S.
                    "
                    The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                    " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                    Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
                      I suspect the overarching problem is, we have always assumed the photograph was taken of a body before it was touched by anyone.

                      Whereas, in press reports we are told quite clearly that the doctors entered and conducted a preliminary examination before the photographer was called.

                      Dr. Phillips, the divisional surgeon of police, soon arrived, and was followed by Dr. Bond, of Westminster, divisional surgeon of the A division, Dr. J. R. Gabe, of Mecklenburgh-square, and two or three other surgeons. They made a preliminary examination of the body and sent for a photographer, who made several photographs of the remains.
                      https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18881110.html

                      As Dr. Bond was one of the first to enter the room, then we might be safe in assuming he is describing the body as it was found.
                      However, the photograph of the body on the bed was taken some considerable time later - and more importantly, subsequent to a preliminary examination by several doctors.

                      The photograph of the body on the bed does not show precisely how the body was found when the door was forced open.
                      A preliminary examination doesn't necessarily mean the body was moved in any way. It might have been touched (checking for pulse or body warmth etc) but not moved. The position of the body in MJK2 is exactly as described in Bond's report.
                      ------------------------------------------------------
                      http://autumnofterror.com | http://JtR3D.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                        Would we see MJK's arm if it was slightly abducted at 20-30 degrees?

                        https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig2_282352011
                        Nope. Not even 30 - 40 degrees. That side of her body is obscured by the mass of artefact that remained of her chest.
                        ------------------------------------------------------
                        http://autumnofterror.com | http://JtR3D.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Unfortunately people will see what they want to see in that image, usually in order to assist in the peddling of a particular theory. The limbs were never a target for JTR, and as others have pointed out, any movement of them would've been done afterwards, but why let the facts get in the way of a good story eh?

                          Cheers,
                          Adam.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RichardH View Post
                            A preliminary examination doesn't necessarily mean the body was moved in any way. It might have been touched (checking for pulse or body warmth etc) but not moved. The position of the body in MJK2 is exactly as described in Bond's report.

                            What you seem to be suggesting Richard is, observation, not examination.
                            Dr. Bond had to make an examination in order to write his report to Anderson. His examination was done at Millers Court before the body was removed to the mortuary.
                            Regards, Jon S.
                            "
                            The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                            " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                            Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                            Comment

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