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Finding Mary Kelly

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  • Jurriaan Maessen
    replied
    Oh, I think there's absolutely alot of merit in approaching the matter in that way, but it's just not my approach at the moment, although, as you rightly point out, it's one of few sensible lines of inquiry left to us at the moment. I want to follow up on the "Jeanette"-connection, especially as it pertains to the possible Dutch connection.

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  • Markus Aurelius Franzoi
    replied
    Antonetta "Jeanette" Morgenstern died about 1884 so it makes sense. I'd forgotten about that probable origin of the name.

    Can Mary's origin story be considered as a possible source for evidence of any kind at this point? My question is why drop the name and not the geography?

    Even Chris Scott kept the name when he got the tip for Tottenham Mary Jane Kelly early in 2008. I think that was the same year as his Rippercast episode saying her name might not be Mary Jane Kelly after all.

    It was the 120th Anniversary show so it was Nov 11, 2008. I believe he found Tottenham MJK's 1889 marriage certificate in September of 2008 so a couple of months before the show. It was probably a letdown. He even had a 2nd Battalion.

    https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...-details/page4

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  • Jurriaan Maessen
    replied
    I think.. fear, rather, that the attempt to detect Mary Jane Kelly on the basis of a brand name, alias or otherwise nom de plumish sort of embroidering, are unlikely to reveal to us the woman known as Mary Jane (or Marie Jeanette) Kelly to her contemporaries, although I admit to be somewhat intrigued by the wife of one of the Morgenstern-brothers, who sometimes adopted the name "Jeanette".
    Jeanette, often considered to be an obvious frenchification of the more prosaic sounding "Jane", was extremely common in the Netherlands in the mid- to late 19th century (as was Marie, or "Marietje"), and possibly adopted by Kelly when she stayed with the Morgensterns. I tend to approach the enigma more from a vantage point of circumstance, geography, immigration routes and other such circumstantial information first. It may contribute something if a name should one day pop out of the woodworks. But I admit it's a long and not exactly promising avenue to pursue.

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  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Markus Aurelius Franzoi View Post
    Alice McKenzie may never have used a first name alias? Catherine "Rose" Mylett, if she is Catherine, used Rose, Alice, Elizabeth and Clara, with surnames like Downey and Davis and brands starting with Fair. Davis perhaps and Fair definitely makes her similar to Mary.

    The canonicals had either nicknames, brands or alternate last names. That goes to show you that you never know, but real first names do come up as do married or common-law names, and Catherine Eddowes used her maiden name.

    Mary is reported to have had several brands - Ginger and Fair Emma, Dark Mary and Black Mary. First and middle names Mary Jane, and Mary Ann, Marie Jeanette and just Marie. So the name Mary is repeated as in Alice's naming and branding. Does anyone think Mary Jane Kelly pronounced Kelly with a French pronunciation when she said, my name is Marie Jeanette Kelly?
    Correct, she may not have.

    Of the canonicals I would have said only MJK was the type to use a brand name, though Stride may have in Sweden.

    It may be worth trying a few other forenames paired with McKensie, Kinsey etc to see if that throws up anything interesting.

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  • Markus Aurelius Franzoi
    replied
    Alice McKenzie may never have used a first name alias? Catherine "Rose" Mylett, if she is Catherine, used Rose, Alice, Elizabeth and Clara, with surnames like Downey and Davis and brands starting with Fair. Davis perhaps and Fair definitely makes her similar to Mary.

    The canonicals had either nicknames, brands or alternate last names. That goes to show you that you never know, but real first names do come up as do married or common-law names, and Catherine Eddowes used her maiden name.

    Mary is reported to have had several brands - Ginger and Fair Emma, Dark Mary and Black Mary. First and middle names Mary Jane, and Mary Ann, Marie Jeanette and just Marie. So the name Mary is repeated as in Alice's naming and branding. Does anyone think Mary Jane Kelly pronounced Kelly with a French pronunciation when she said, my name is Marie Jeanette Kelly?

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  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Markus Aurelius Franzoi View Post
    I’m not sure how relevant my American-Scandinavian in Canada example is. It’s still officially unsolved. Most people believe he used an alias. He was definitely a criminal so it makes sense.

    He had two fairly different ones if you believe he’s “Arthur Nelson”. The other is “Albert Johnson” which was the identity of someone else whom they were expecting in the Yukon. And every generation and every country or nationality has a different taste in names. He might choose Arthur as an alias.

    Ireland has a penchant for Mary. Each family might have a Mary and then a Mary Ann and then a Mary Jane. Alice McKenzie, because of the sheer number of
    other aliases, would also predictably be one.
    I personally wouldn’t predict that Alice used any other forename than Alice. It was her surname that she (and others) juggled somewhat. That was also often the case with criminals using aliases.

    And we should perhaps draw a distinction between the switching of surnames and the use of ‘brand names’ (can’t think of a better term) by prostitutes. I think it was on the Westminster Catholic census that we came across ‘Dynamite Kate’ and ‘Carroty Nell’. This was after Francis Coles, who had also used ‘Carroty Nell’, had died and I believe ‘Dynamite Kate’ had been a character in a play (?). I suspect ‘Fair Emma’ may have been such a ‘brand name’, as we’ve discussed before, possibly being a reference to Emma Hamilton.


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  • Markus Aurelius Franzoi
    replied
    I’m not sure how relevant my American-Scandinavian in Canada example is. It’s still officially unsolved. Most people believe he used an alias. He was definitely a criminal so it makes sense.

    He had two fairly different ones if you believe he’s “Arthur Nelson”. The other is “Albert Johnson” which was the identity of someone else whom they were expecting in the Yukon. And every generation and every country or nationality has a different taste in names. He might choose Arthur as an alias.

    Ireland has a penchant for Mary. Each family might have a Mary and then a Mary Ann and then a Mary Jane. Alice McKenzie, because of the sheer number of
    other aliases, would also predictably be one.

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  • Jurriaan Maessen
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    Where's Jurriaan gone?
    Oh, I'm only now reading the replies, didn't catch the notifications for some reason

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  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

    He was active on FB today, so he hasn’t gone far.
    I'm surprised he hasn't commented on San's posts. I think they have a lot in common approach -wise. Not to be negative, just wondering what they come up with between them.

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  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    Where's Jurriaan gone?
    He was active on FB today, so he hasn’t gone far.

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  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Markus Aurelius Franzoi View Post
    If Alice McKenzie's story was in the Peterborough Advertiser (I believe I saw the article dated 1889), is it then a good bet that her family heard about it and guessed who she was and yet didn't come forward publicly? The story I read said she was in Peterborough begging some time before the murder. Or did they miss it?
    The story was in all 3 of the Peterborough papers, but the family strenuously denied the connection. I think they must have suspected that the murder victim might be their missing sister, but wouldn’t entertain the possibility publicly.

    I suspect the tramp/beggar may have been a red herring. A tramp named Alice Mackenzie was recorded elsewhere in the country after our Alice died.

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  • Markus Aurelius Franzoi
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    Working from her Christian name, her approximate age, her place of birth and her father’s occupation we could have identified her even without the help of the Peterborough Advertiser.
    If Alice McKenzie's story was in the Peterborough Advertiser (I believe I saw the article dated 1889), is it then a good bet that her family heard about it and guessed who she was and yet didn't come forward publicly? The story I read said she was in Peterborough begging some time before the murder. Or did they miss it?

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  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Where's Jurriaan gone?

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  • Markus Aurelius Franzoi
    replied
    Yes I confused her with Emma Smith and removed the post when I saw there were no replies.

    My point can still be made that there is a difference between genealogy and IDing Jane Does. Alice McKenzie might have turned out to be "straight forward" as Jane Does go but that's not usually the case.

    Alice McKenzie's murder appears to be a copycat killing. Some copycat killings are done by persons known to the victim, to throw off suspicion, so it could be "domestic" or gang related. Jack the Ripper, on the other hand, might throw people off his trail by selecting people with spotty origin stories or burnt bridges.

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  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Markus Aurelius Franzoi

    Although I found one candidate by searching Mary Jane Kelly and Carnarvon, could it really be that simple?

    Do you think Mary Jane Kelly's case might be different because Alice McKenzie was killed presumably by a gang and Mary by a serial killer? If she was killed by a gang, then it's almost like a domestic killing v a stranger killing.

    Don't Jane Does have more unusual deaths associated with them which might make IDing them more than a typical genealogical search?
    Hi…

    What is your actual name? Unless it’s a great secret, please let me know so that I can at least address you with it in PMs. I will not divulge it beyond any PM discussions.

    Alice McKenzie wasn’t killed by a gang - as far as we know - are you confusing her with Emma Smith who claimed she was?

    The point about Alice is that her surname was never officially McKenzie. She was born Alice Pitts and married a man named Kinsey. There is a list of 17 different surnames/alternative spellings that she collected during her short life. That’s why her ID went undercover for 130 years. Perhaps something just as simple might explain the MJK mystery?

    Gary





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