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PC E. Newberry (Retired) in 1911 Claimed To Have Locked up Kelly For Drunkenness

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  • Dew knew everything and everybody. A bit like Arthur Harding.

    ;-)

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    • Harding claimed that Biddy the Chiver killed her husband in a fit of jealous rage, was sentenced to 3 years in prison for the crime and died in Holloway. None of that was true.

      She was sentenced to 3 years in an inebriate reformatory in 1912. Next time I’m at the LMA, I’m going to look at the relevant Old Street register to see what the crime was. Drink must have played a part in it. Perhaps it was an attack on her husband, Thomas O’Rourke, but he outlived her. They were apparently living together as man and wife 20 years after she left the reformatory.

      What I’d really like to see is the Worship Street register for 8th September, 1888, but I don’t think that’s survived.

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      • Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post
        Dew claimed to have known Mary by sight. It's in his book.
        "A pretty, buxom girl"

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        • I don't think Harding's bullshit reflects on Dew.

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          • They were cut from same cloth. Old men exaggerating their involvement in significant past events. Dew describes Bowyer as a ‘young fellow’ a ‘lad’ and a ‘youth’. He was actually a grizzled army veteran of 40 who would be dead a few months later.

            I have Dew pegged as a collector of newspaper cuttings who later used them to add detail to his vague memories of events he wasn’t as closely involved in as he would have liked to have been.

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            • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
              They were cut from same cloth. Old men exaggerating their involvement in significant past events. Dew describes Bowyer as a ‘young fellow’ a ‘lad’ and a ‘youth’. He was actually a grizzled army veteran of 40 who would be dead a few months later.

              I have Dew pegged as a collector of newspaper cuttings who later used them to add detail to his vague memories of events he wasn’t as closely involved in as he would have liked to have been.
              I sometime suspect there must be a Dr. Crippen in the Barnett family tree. ;-)

              As has been discussed before, a more nuanced view of Dew's comments about Bowyer might not involve news clippings and a liar, but a very real Detective Constable who was remembering the boy "Jack M'Carthy" mentioned as having been at the scene of the crime the morning of the murder.

              Discussed here, Post #95, etc.


              McCarthy Photo - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)


              It's not really provable either way, but if old men are to be dismissed with a wave of the hand and as liars and self-promoters, are any of us safe?

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              • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post

                I sometime suspect there must be a Dr. Crippen in the Barnett family tree. ;-)

                As has been discussed before, a more nuanced view of Dew's comments about Bowyer might not involve news clippings and a liar, but a very real Detective Constable who was remembering the boy "Jack M'Carthy" mentioned as having been at the scene of the crime the morning of the murder.

                Discussed here, Post #95, etc.


                McCarthy Photo - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)


                It's not really provable either way, but if old men are to be dismissed with a wave of the hand and as liars and self-promoters, are any of us safe?
                More nuanced? He describes the arrival of the lad/youth/young fellow at Commercial Street in detail.

                The boy McCarthy in one reports was collecting rents with his mother when he discovered Kelly’s body. ‘Oh mother don’t look!’ (or words to that effect) he allegedly said to her.

                Perhaps we should start a thread like the HR one listing all of Dews ‘nuances’. :-)




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                • And, for balance, another thread listing all the accuracies.

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                  • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
                    And, for balance, another thread listing all the accuracies.
                    Yes, like his description of Squibby which he devotes more space to than some of the murders he was supposedly personally investigating. There is evidence that Dew was involved in the Squibby arrest.

                    Judging by his comments about Fanny Mortimer it seems he either wasn’t involved in the Berners Street case or his memory played tricks on him. He seems to think that Fanny lived in Dutfield’s Yard, had a gate and saw a suspicious looking man with a black bag who was probably the Ripper. Oh, and he gives the Berners Street club a glowing reference.

                    He also suggests Lechmere interfered with Nichols’ body before the other man arrived (that’s the unknown man who was never traced) which I suppose must appeal to you. Perhaps he did, pehaps he personally interviewed Lech and obtained that information but it wasn’t recorded elsewhere.

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                    • He says he was a young newbie officer at the time. He was based at Commercial Street... his knowledge of the Nichols murder would have been second hand, as with Stride.
                      Kelly would've have been more immediate.
                      Clearly Dew was going on imprecise memory from long after the events, but I would suggest his account is fairly accurate and conveys the mood or tone of the investigation.

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                      • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
                        He says he was a young newbie officer at the time. He was based at Commercial Street... his knowledge of the Nichols murder would have been second hand, as with Stride.
                        Kelly would've have been more immediate.
                        Clearly Dew was going on imprecise memory from long after the events, but I would suggest his account is fairly accurate and conveys the mood or tone of the investigation.
                        He gets stuff wrong about Smith too.

                        I find it strange that when he clearly makes mistakes about other victims that’s put down to poor memory or lack of personal involvement, but when he describes the Kelly informant as a youth etc people start considering the possibility that the other witnesses were in error and old Wally was correct.

                        Beck says Kelly wasn’t known to the police. Newbie Dew knew her well. He was probably as familiar with her as he was Fanny Mortimer’s garden gate.



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                        • If she wasn't known to the police at all, then they weren't very good at their basic beat work, and the Kelly arrested with Kerby must have been someone else.

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                          • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
                            If she wasn't known to the police at all, then they weren't very good at their basic beat work, and the Kelly arrested with Kerby must have been someone else.
                            That may well have been down in St Georges.

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                            • Perhaps Dew had a copy of Tom Robinson's book to hand when he wrote his memoirs?

                              Daisy Bank Jack the Ripper Cover.jpg

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                              • Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post
                                Perhaps Dew had a copy of Tom Robinson's book to hand when he wrote his memoirs?

                                Daisy Bank Jack the Ripper Cover.jpg
                                Don’t tell me you have a copy of that or I’ll be sneaking in through your window one night. :-)

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