Annie Millwood

[Rob Clack]

Rob: How were birthdays regarded in that time? We pretty much never her about birth dates in our research. For instance not even Barnett made casual mention of MJK's birthday, such as, we got drunk once on her birthday in ______ month.

My point is if one does not pay much attention to the day and year they were born, age might be a bit theoretical. One perhaps turns 23 sometime in the spring, but when exactly does that person think she turns 24? Pretty soon I think, exactly how old a person thinks he or she is, becomes inaccurate by a couple years or so.

(I know from having lived with Middle Eastern people, who have traditionally used a lunar calendar, and who do not keep track of birth dates, that age is very fluid. In the 1970s these things were guessed at in order to receive passports. I learned all this when I was thrilled about a close friend from Egypt sharing my birthday. But he really didn't. He had no idea when he was born and simply made up the date to get a passport.)

Hi Anna,

This might seem like a non answer, but I would think it would depend on the individual person. Some would remember their birthday, some wouldn't. Some would never know or care. And some people change there ages as well for one reason or another.
Also it could easily be written down wrong in some records.

Rob

[Gary Barnett]

Hi Rob,

I don't think there's any doubt that the woman in the WU in 1888 was the same as the one there in 1881, even with the variant spellings of the name.

But her DOB is consistently ca 1851 in the WU records and that matches the woman in prison in 1881. The Chelsea woman's dates are quite a bit out. That's the point I was trying to make.

Gary

[Stan Reid]

Sir John: If we consider Emma Smith as one of Jack's first, the idea of him being a gang member who escalated is very possible.

Yes, we had a serial killer here whose first slaying was a gang killing. He then went on to commit additional murders both with a partner and on his own.

[Rob Clack]

Hi Rob,

I don't think there's any doubt that the woman in the WU in 1888 was the same as the one there in 1881, even with the variant spellings of the name.

But her DOB is consistently ca 1851 in the WU records and that matches the woman in prison in 1881. The Chelsea woman's dates are quite a bit out. That's the point I was trying to make.

Gary

Hi Gary,

I see. Sorry my mistake.

Rob

[Gary Barnett]

Hi Gary,

I see. Sorry my mistake.

Rob

Rob,

No problem. I suspect Mark is probably right that the Chelsea lady, married to the soldier Richard Milward, is the same woman. But I've got Bridget Kelly on the brain at the moment and the possibilty that she was in stir with Annie Millwood and that they both had army connections is too good to pass up without a bit of investigation.

Gary

[Rob Clack]

Rob,

No problem. I suspect Mark is probably right that the Chelsea lady, married to the soldier Richard Milward, is the same woman. But I've got Bridget Kelly on the brain at the moment and the possibilty that she was in stir with Annie Millwood and that they both had army connections is too good to pass up without a bit of investigation.

Gary

Hi Gary,

I am sure I looked at the Chelsea woman back in 2009, just can't lay my hands on my notes. I came to the same conclusions as Mark for the same reasons. I also had a tough time trying to track Richard down as well. I think I had two hopefuls but they turned out to be red herrings.

Rob

[Debra Arif]

Rob,

No problem. I suspect Mark is probably right that the Chelsea lady, married to the soldier Richard Milward, is the same woman. But I've got Bridget Kelly on the brain at the moment and the possibilty that she was in stir with Annie Millwood and that they both had army connections is too good to pass up without a bit of investigation.

Gary

I had my eye on that particular Ann Milward originally too, Gary. I couldn't find her after 1881.
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=60

[Gary Barnett]

I had my eye on that particular Ann Milward originally too, Gary. I couldn't find her after 1881.
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=60

From a brief look on FMP it seems there may have been three AEPs:

One who died in 1840 in Ongar, Essex.

One born in 1805 in Greenstead, Essex who died in 1875 in Chelsea.

One born in 1844 in Bloomsbury who married in 1872 in Chelsea.

They have to be connected, surely.

[Debra Arif]

From a brief look on FMP it seems there may have been three AEPs:

One who died in 1840 in Ongar, Essex.

One born in 1805 in Greenstead, Essex who died in 1875 in Chelsea.

One born in 1844 in Bloomsbury who married in 1872 in Chelsea.

They have to be connected, surely.

Yes. I thought so. I meant I originally picked out the same Westminster prisoner- before Mark posted his research.

Annie East Perry was born in 1844 so would have had to have shaved 7 years off her age to become the Annie Milward/Milwood of 1881 and 1888, (she's also listed in the creed register of the South Grove workhouse where she died as born 1850) She had to start doing that at some point, why not the 1881 census. The birthplace and marital status rule the Westminster prisoner out obviously but the age can't be used to rule her out or in if we accept she was AEP, if you see what I mean?

[Gary Barnett]

On the 1871 census there is an Ann Perry, born Ongar, aged 64, general dealer living in Charlotte Street, Chelsea. She has 1 female visitor and 3 female lodgers. Two of them were supposedly born in Calais.

Interesting?

Edit: I'm not sure of the number. The first house on the next page is 13, the last on the previous page it's 8. So it's somewhere between. AEP and JM were married from no. 12 in 1872.

[Gary Barnett]

Greenstead/Ongar has a very ancient church.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensted_Church

[Gary Barnett]

It may be a case of wishful thinking, but I think this brings the woman in prison slightly closer:

Name: Ann Milward (not Annie, but close enough)
Age: 30 (matches the woman in the WU)
Occupation: Dressmaker (matches that of the French women in Charlotte Street)
POB: Essex (same county as AEP's family, although Stratford is a long way from Ongar)

The icing on the cake is an establishment on the west side of London with a French connection.

[Gary Barnett]

The French ladies may well have been respectable.

Berthe Thoreau could have been Mlle Des Costes' sister. A Bertha Descostes married a Charles Philip Thoreau in Lambeth in 1872. In 1901 they appear to be living in Holborn. He is a language teacher and she is a dressmaker, aged 58.

[Anna Morris]

I'm a bit lost here on the French women, but want to suggest again that MJK's box of costly dresses need not have been the product of life in the brothel. (Brothel life could have been a good cover story for stolen dresses. Perhaps that's where that part of MJK's story got started.) They could have been stolen from someone who had access to clothing. (I found it interesting that Ben Goodson stole a large amount of clothing from a warehouse.)

[Gary Barnett]

By 1911 Berthe has been widowed (1905) remarried (1906 to a James Crosbie) and widowed for a second time.

She is living in Upper Norwood with her son Frank, a general clerk aged 31, and two French-born Descostes nieces, Louise, 22, a dressmaker's apprentice and Elise, 18, a milliner's apprentice.