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  • Sir John Falstaff
    replied
    Thank you Howard and Anna.

    I just want to point out that I'm not pushing the case of Millwood being a victim of Jack, but like you said, "how did he get there? How did he get to Nichols? (meaning the M.O. and signature)

    You don't wake up one morning saying "I had a dream of women savagely cut and disemboweled and now I have the strangest boner".

    Maybe he was a criminal in a gang. Maybe one night got a little violent and he discovered that he liked it. Maybe it got weird and the gang dropped him, or even better, maybe it got too weird and they got rid of him.

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  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Sir John: One of the things I have always looked for was, what did Jack do before he got good at cutting throats? I have an idea he was a strangler, but he could have been a lot of things. Annie Millwood or even Ada Wilson are possibilities.

    Or perhaps Polly Nichols said or did something Jack's sick mind didn't like and that was the start. I really don't think his first crime was a deadly efficient throat slashing.

    One thing I have learned fairly recently is that the, "five and five only" started with MacNaughten who seemed to have a suspect or two or three in mind. Perhaps those suspects were not available for other murders and that is how the list was narrowed to five and five only.

    Keeping one's mind open, looking for patterns and doing as much research as possible is the best way to solve this I think.

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  • Howard Brown
    replied
    Good points there, Sir John.
    I think Millwood's assault could have been committed by the Ripper. You're not alone, as some other folks around here do too.

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  • Sir John Falstaff
    replied
    Allow me to resurrect this thread

    I don't have a pet theory, nor favorite suspect for JtR, and I am not a psychologist. But one thing that comes to mind is

    "how do you know you suffer from vertigo if you never climbed a ladder?"

    My point is, if someone is turned on by something as twisted as slashing/cutting, it doesn't happen overnight.
    Horsnell was beaten up.
    Millwood was stabbed (picquerism?)
    Smith (can't remember if slashed or stabbed, but her ear was almost removed, and she suffered a repulsive assault by an object)
    Tabram was stabbed. (Hypothesis: One hand on her mouth, head smashed to the floor, while the other hand pierce her sternum with a stronger blade, he leaves the blade there, and use clasp knife for his fantasy).

    The mutilations are the turn on, the throat slashing was the best option so he could do it without any resistance.

    So, I think it's not impossible that Millwood was one step toward the discovery of his twisted fantasy.

    If anything, I'd be more inclined to include Millwood as a potential JtR victim than Smith, who was attacked by 3 men. Or like Tom Westcott wrote in his book, maybe her story wasn't the truth, because she expected to survive the attack.

    Anyway, It bugs me a little that there is a general dismissal of Millwood and a sudden interest in Smith.

    As for Baxter, calling her death unrelated, let's not forget that despite recommendation from a doctor, an autopsy wasn't ordered on Horsnell and an open verdict was ruled because they felt there was no chance of catching who did it. Was the Millwood case similar? 40 days later, that trail was cold.

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  • Stan Reid
    replied
    Monday the 25th will mark the 125th anniversary of the attack on Annie.

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  • m_w_r
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul View Post
    Did anyone ever find out more about Richard Millwood, Annie' husband? Was her real name Millward, as Mark Ripper suggested?
    Hi Paul,

    I never went any further with this than is shown in my article in the WS1888 Journal (October 2008). Incidentally, in that article, I suggested that the spelling was Milward, with one l.

    However, Rob Clack and Philip Hutchinson went a little further in the second and paperback editions of their book TLOJTRTAN. They identified Annie in the 1881 records of the Whitechapel Union Infirmary (she was admitted shortly after the census of that year was taken).

    As for Richard Milward ... he was a devil to find - not so much in the censuses and so on as in military records and other sources: I thought I might be able to locate some interesting stuff there. But of course Annie herself never seems to have been much more specific about the nature of Richard's service than to say that he was a soldier, so one doesn't really know where to begin to look. More details - details we don't have - would have been very helpful here, and, as the world's least enthusiastic searcher of military records, I never got very far with this. With infinite patience, or with new information, or with a bit of luck, I suppose that Richard could be found. I don't plan to look for him myself, however.

    I continue to feel that the identification of Annie Milward is the correct one, for whatever good that does. But I don't suppose that the spelling of her name is really up for general review - I wouldn't be surprised if she remained a Millwood in 90%+ of references over many, many years to come. Why, even in the recent A-Z ... ahem ...

    Regards,

    Mark

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard Brown
    replied
    J.T.
    Here I was all set to debate your point about someone pulling a knife out and using it on someone without wanting to commit murder...or using a knife on someone and caring whether they died or not....and at the last second, I remembered Renwick Williams and Thomas Cutbush.
    Interesting thought,pal.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Here is my own personal theory about the Millwood attack, if the attacker was indeed JTR:

    Annie said the man that attacked used a clasp knife (sorta like what you would see with a Swiss army knife); now, this is important if the attacker was, in fact, the Whitechapel killer. A clasp knife would be considerably smaller than the knives that were used in the later killings. So, I don't think the intention in this attack was meant to be fatal. I personally think the attacker was becoming overwhelmed with his lust of violent fantasies and decided to do a "practice run"; picking out a random target and then proceeding to stab her a few times in the fleshy areas of her body (it does say the attack was directed towards her "lower torso," which could mean the upper legs, thighs, and maybe her backside). So, I think the attacker wanted to see how it felt to sink his weapon into warm flesh, but not with intent to kill. That would come later...as his M.O. would begin to develop and grow.

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  • Paul
    replied
    An interesting thread to revive, unless it has been revived on another thread. Did anyone ever find out more about Richard Millwood, Annie' husband? Was her real name Millward, as Mark Ripper suggested?

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    @How - no problem. I didn't feel "put on the spot", but when I was posting I was still slightly impressed how my (in my eyes) harmless question in the Hutchinson thread went off. Hehehe
    But I'm here to discuss, so it's fine when someone asks questions. :-)

    Concerning the pension - due to Jack London's book I have a rough idea about wages back then, but I have no idea how much a pension would be. That would be interesting to know.

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  • SirRobertAnderson
    replied
    Originally posted by How Brown View Post
    Bob:

    I never thought of looking into that aspect of Millwood's case. Good thinking buddy.
    My thought of course was that with a reasonable pension, we could ASSume away her being a prostitute.

    However, over in the Casebook News archives, I see that she was taken to a workhouse infirmary, so I guess she was another poor soul at rock bottom.

    It would be interesting to learn about what happened to her pension as a soldier's widow.

    East London Advertiser
    Saturday, 7 April 1888.

    SUDDEN DEATH AT THE WHITECHAPEL WORKHOUSE.

    An inquest was held on Thursday at the Baker’s-row Infirmary, touching the death of Annie Milwood, aged 38. Thomas Badcock stated – I am the master of the Whitechapel Union Workhouse, South-grove. The deceased was admitted to the workhouse on the 21st ult., and on Saturday the 31st ult., my attention was drawn to her as she was then laying down in the corridor, apparent [sic] in a fit.

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  • Howard Brown
    replied
    Bob:

    I never thought of looking into that aspect of Millwood's case. Good thinking buddy.

    Ultra Violet:

    Very fine response,if I may say so.

    Thanks for the elaboration and sorry if the questions "put you on the spot", since the issue of Tabram being considered a Ripper victim is always a matter of accepting that a change in m.o. occurred and accepting that unlike the other murders that followed, two knives are mentioned by a medical man or anyone for that matter, despite the possibility that in the subsequent murders,two knives may have been employed,...only we couldn't and can't know about it and never will. The risk factor in certainly there: the social strata is certainly there as far as victim type: genital area attacked...and so on and so forth, not to overlook the proximity to Nichols' murder either.

    A man walking about in the East End with more than one weapon on his person may have been uncommon or not the norm, UV...but for a certain type of man...someone who was not averse to confrontation, a little whacked out upstairs, or someone who was a frequenter of the rougher areas of an already rough area, it might have been less uncommon, lets say... and thats where Charles Ludwig's saga is of value in the scheme of things. Ludwig had a few weapons on his person when arrested for an assault after the Chapman murder at a coffeestall.

    Having said that, using them is another story altogether,isn't it?

    Perhaps the blade of an inferior-made knife broke off.... necessitating the use of a second and available one in Tabram's case? Maybe a thread for these two knives is in order,Ultra Violet?

    Anyway....back to Millwood !!!

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  • SirRobertAnderson
    replied
    Originally posted by How Brown View Post
    This case has similarities with the Tabram murder,as she lived near George Yard and like the unfortunate Martha Tabram,was stabbed repeatedly. Its also possible she was a prostitute.
    As she was a soldier's widow, I presume she was entitled to a pension of some sorts. Has this been verified ? Did her husband die in combat or of natural causes and would that make a difference in terms of the monies received?

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Hello Howard,

    I actually have a hard time making my mind up here. Some things might point towards JtR - the dates, the position Martha Tabram was found in, dress pulled up, the high risk of discovery. Other things are debatable - mutilations, victim type. Concerning the victim type - for one thing there were a lot of these poor women in that area and they are an easy target. So it can mean either that JtR was looking for a certain type of victim or he just took what was easily available.

    To me the mutilations seem to mainly target the lower torso, but it could equally be argued that the attacker was just stabbing away. I think that JtR could have gone from stabbing to cutting, while other people are likely to disagree. So to me it feels consistent with what JtR did, but I'm aware of the fact that this is a very subjective point of view.
    If I take that subjective and speculative stance, I say, he developped. Killing someone by slashing the throat is certainly a more efficient way to kill. There are some serial killers, especially those for whom the killing wasn't the main part of the deed, that killed in different ways. And moving from stabbing to cutting doesn't seem so outrageously a change in behaviour either. It could be likewise regarded as an increase in violence.

    What really irks me about the murder of Martha Tabram are the two knives. First of all it seems somewhat impractical to use two knives. Further I have no idea how he would handle them - stabbing her with one knife, then pulling the other one from his pocket (or whereever he carried it) and stabbing her in the heart, or the other way round or somehow simultaneously. It just seems very awkward. It could imply that there were two attackers which would lead to a whole new bunch of questions. Or maybe Killeen just has drawn a wrong conclusion concerning the wound inflicted on the heart and it wasn't two knives after all.

    So if I just look at the things that relate to JtR and allow myself to have a very subjective opinion, I would say that Martha Tabram was most likely attacked by JtR, but seeing how much of this is based on mere speculation, having no experience with forensic pathology and not being able to make heads or tails of the two knives I have to say: I really don't know and more than one scenario would be plausible in that case.

    Heh, and before I get nailed for that one - the inclusion of Annie Millwood is kinda subjective, too, just going by the few facts that I already mentioned and additionally, the fact that the attack against her mainly targeted the groin and legs.


    Helga

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  • Howard Brown
    replied
    Dear Ultra Violet:

    Let me put the question to you....

    If you, as Stan Reid has mentioned as well, give the possibility that Ms.Millwood and Martha Tabram were assaulted by the same man...

    1. Might this indicate to your mind a separate killer other than the individual(s) who killed Nichols,Chapman,etc...?

    2. Might this be the same individual(s) who subsequently killed the victims from Nichols to Kelly...with,of course, your preference/decision to eliminate Stride or Kelly from this chain ?

    3. Is it possible, if you DO consider question number 2 to be plausible...that the killer simply developed a better way of dispatching his victims ?

    Thank you.

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