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  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Originally posted by Stan Reid View Post
    I have also thought she and Tabram might have been attacked by the same person even if it wasn't JtR. Also, that the death was a little too much of a coincidence, that is, it likely was the result of the assault, whatever the diagnosis.
    This is a good thread to revive especially since we have been discussing Martha Tabram recently.

    What got me here today is refreshing my memory on Annie Millwood, Ada Wilson, Emma Smith and Martha Tabram. The pattern I am thinking about is injury to women's lower abdomens, legs, sexual organs, whether by knife or otherwise. There was plenty of violence in the East End of London but it seems to me these sorts of injuries were unusual so the obvious question is, 'Why were there several of these in 1888, the same year JtR also targeted these areas?' The obvious point which many have pondered is, did JtR do any of the others and did he start out stabbing rather than slashing?

    Over time there have been lots of creepy killers but I still think what happened to Emma Smith, vaginal penetration by foreign object which ruptured her internal organs, is extreme behavior even for a serial killer. JtR's attacks were also extreme. Were there two extremely deviant killers/attackers operating in that area in 1888 or was JtR able to advance from stabbing to throat cutting, Tabram to Nichols, in a short time?

    However that is, this thread is a great one to re-read.

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    Hi Anna,

    Long story short. I think the French dressmakers may have been the lodgers of Annie Millwood's relative, Ann Perry. This was in 1871, so no direct connection to MJK.

    Gary
    I wonder if Annie East Perry, later Milward, was the illegitimate daughter of the Chelsea based, Essex born, unmarried, Ann East Perry. The Annie East Perry born 1844 in Bloomsbury who married Richard Milward was also registered under the name Annie East King at her birth, which would suggest illegitimacy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
    On a side note I've been to Greensted Church many times. Including to a Christmas Carol Service last year.
    Some of the Tolpuddle Martyrs were briefly resettled in Greensted after they were brought back from transportation to Australia.
    I've been there a couple of times. It's a lovely old building. I posted the link really to explain the discrepancy between the elder AP's two recorded birthplaces, Greenstead and Ongar.

    Leave a comment:


  • Edward Stow
    replied
    On a side note I've been to Greensted Church many times. Including to a Christmas Carol Service last year.
    Some of the Tolpuddle Martyrs were briefly resettled in Greensted after they were brought back from transportation to Australia.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
    I'm a bit lost here on the French women, but want to suggest again that MJK's box of costly dresses need not have been the product of life in the brothel. (Brothel life could have been a good cover story for stolen dresses. Perhaps that's where that part of MJK's story got started.) They could have been stolen from someone who had access to clothing. (I found it interesting that Ben Goodson stole a large amount of clothing from a warehouse.)
    Hi Anna,

    Long story short. I think the French dressmakers may have been the lodgers of Annie Millwood's relative, Ann Perry. This was in 1871, so no direct connection to MJK.

    Gary

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    By 1911 Berthe has been widowed (1905) remarried (1906 to a James Crosbie) and widowed for a second time.

    She is living in Upper Norwood with her son Frank, a general clerk aged 31, and two French-born Descostes nieces, Louise, 22, a dressmaker's apprentice and Elise, 18, a milliner's apprentice.

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    I'm a bit lost here on the French women, but want to suggest again that MJK's box of costly dresses need not have been the product of life in the brothel. (Brothel life could have been a good cover story for stolen dresses. Perhaps that's where that part of MJK's story got started.) They could have been stolen from someone who had access to clothing. (I found it interesting that Ben Goodson stole a large amount of clothing from a warehouse.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    The French ladies may well have been respectable.

    Berthe Thoreau could have been Mlle Des Costes' sister. A Bertha Descostes married a Charles Philip Thoreau in Lambeth in 1872. In 1901 they appear to be living in Holborn. He is a language teacher and she is a dressmaker, aged 58.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    It may be a case of wishful thinking, but I think this brings the woman in prison slightly closer:

    Name: Ann Milward (not Annie, but close enough)
    Age: 30 (matches the woman in the WU)
    Occupation: Dressmaker (matches that of the French women in Charlotte Street)
    POB: Essex (same county as AEP's family, although Stratford is a long way from Ongar)

    The icing on the cake is an establishment on the west side of London with a French connection.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Greenstead/Ongar has a very ancient church.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensted_Church

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    On the 1871 census there is an Ann Perry, born Ongar, aged 64, general dealer living in Charlotte Street, Chelsea. She has 1 female visitor and 3 female lodgers. Two of them were supposedly born in Calais.

    Interesting?

    Edit: I'm not sure of the number. The first house on the next page is 13, the last on the previous page it's 8. So it's somewhere between. AEP and JM were married from no. 12 in 1872.

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    From a brief look on FMP it seems there may have been three AEPs:

    One who died in 1840 in Ongar, Essex.

    One born in 1805 in Greenstead, Essex who died in 1875 in Chelsea.

    One born in 1844 in Bloomsbury who married in 1872 in Chelsea.

    They have to be connected, surely.
    Yes. I thought so. I meant I originally picked out the same Westminster prisoner- before Mark posted his research.

    Annie East Perry was born in 1844 so would have had to have shaved 7 years off her age to become the Annie Milward/Milwood of 1881 and 1888, (she's also listed in the creed register of the South Grove workhouse where she died as born 1850) She had to start doing that at some point, why not the 1881 census. The birthplace and marital status rule the Westminster prisoner out obviously but the age can't be used to rule her out or in if we accept she was AEP, if you see what I mean?

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    I had my eye on that particular Ann Milward originally too, Gary. I couldn't find her after 1881.
    http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=60
    From a brief look on FMP it seems there may have been three AEPs:

    One who died in 1840 in Ongar, Essex.

    One born in 1805 in Greenstead, Essex who died in 1875 in Chelsea.

    One born in 1844 in Bloomsbury who married in 1872 in Chelsea.

    They have to be connected, surely.

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    Rob,

    No problem. I suspect Mark is probably right that the Chelsea lady, married to the soldier Richard Milward, is the same woman. But I've got Bridget Kelly on the brain at the moment and the possibilty that she was in stir with Annie Millwood and that they both had army connections is too good to pass up without a bit of investigation.

    Gary
    I had my eye on that particular Ann Milward originally too, Gary. I couldn't find her after 1881.
    http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=60

    Leave a comment:


  • Rob Clack
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    Rob,

    No problem. I suspect Mark is probably right that the Chelsea lady, married to the soldier Richard Milward, is the same woman. But I've got Bridget Kelly on the brain at the moment and the possibilty that she was in stir with Annie Millwood and that they both had army connections is too good to pass up without a bit of investigation.

    Gary
    Hi Gary,

    I am sure I looked at the Chelsea woman back in 2009, just can't lay my hands on my notes. I came to the same conclusions as Mark for the same reasons. I also had a tough time trying to track Richard down as well. I think I had two hopefuls but they turned out to be red herrings.

    Rob

    Leave a comment:

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