The violent, table knife stealing first victim?

[Debra Arif]

This may have come up before, I'm not sure. Does anyone know anything about it?



The Woman's Signal Thursday, September 27, 1894; pg. 197
The title of the piece is 'Workhouse interiors by a poor law guardian'

[AP Wolf]

Nice one, Debs, I've never seen that before, and I just about seen everything.

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

Fairy Fay? Emma Smith? Martha Tabram?or Mary Nichols?

That's a great find Debra

I've seen similar descriptions from American descriptions detailing the saving and relapse of residents in similar circumstances

The stabbing of the official has a good chance of being reported elsewhere I would think

[Howard Brown]

Terrific work Debs.

I don't know about you folks, but it sounds to me that they're referring to Nichols.

[Howard Brown]

The stabbing of the official has a good chance of being reported elsewhere I would think -Nemo

Problem is, Nemo...that it was an attempted stab.

I'll take a stab at it in the papers though.

On a wholly unrelated issue.........

I found this while looking for the other thing:
Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper
Sunday, October 22, 1876


That isn't our Mary Ann Cox is it ?

[Howard Brown]

Dear Debs:

I came up goose eggs trying to find a woman attempting to stab someone or actually stabbing one...with a familiar name in the London area. I will keep trying.

[Debra Arif]

I think this could refer to Nichols too.
If it does, the alleged attempted stabbing incident would most likely have occured at the Lambeth workhouse I think as she spent the most time there and the writer seems to have been quite familiar with her.

If the 1887 'Mary Ann Nichols' arrested for sleeping rough in Trafalgar Square(as mentioned on casebook ) is the same Mary Ann Nichols,murder victim, then she was described in the report in Daily News October 26, 1887 as the worst woman in the square that night and was disorderly at the police station. That would sort of fit with the character described in the workhouse article.


This is the newspaper article that Debra is referring to:




This Mary Ann Nichols is listed as 36 in the article, which is 6 years off the actual age the Mary Ann Nichols' age was in 1887...
But you know what they say about ladies and their age.

[Debra Arif]

Thanks for posting that, How.

The Trafalgar Square incident is mentioned on Mary Ann Nichols casebook page as a possible event, although it says she was sent to Lambeth workhouse after being picked up by the police, which isn't mentioned in the excerpt from the Daily News. This difference made me wonder if it has been researched further and there was good reason to think it was the Mary Ann Nichols,but it isn't sourced on the casebook so I don't know where the information comes from.

Regarding reported age, How. This is usually the least reliable of all personal details given in reports, documents etc. Nichols was said to look 10 years younger than she was so I don't see it as a problem that she might have actually passed herself off as a lot younger, plus people didn't celebrate birthdays or necessarily know what year they were born.
My gg grandfather only aged two years in one ten year period between giving census details and about four in the next ten years (I'm following his example to keep up the family tradition )

Whether or not the workhouse piece and the Trafalgar Square report refer to Mary Ann Nichols, ripper victim, it does look like they both refer to the same character, possibly a different woman.

[Howard Brown]

Agreed Debra...I mentioned the difference between the two ages but agree it is probably the same Polly in the long run. Nina told me the very same thing you kindly shared on this typical problem with age while doing research.

[Paul]

Hi Debs
I don't know if it helps but various newspapers reported that Nichols had been admitted to Lambeth Workhouse following being found destitute in Trafalgar Square. The following is from the Morning Advertiser, 3 September 1888):

‘It has been ascertained that the unfortunate woman was one of those who, last year, were in the habit of sleeping in Trafalgar square; and when a clearance of the nightly visitors was made, it being found that she was destitute, and had no means of subsistence, she was admitted as an inmate to the Lambeth Workhouse.’

The inference is that Nichols was admitted to Lambeth Workhouse by those who found her destitute, whereas your newspaper report says that Nichols was released on her own recognisanse. However, I don't think the one precudes the other: Nichols may have been released on her own recognisance, promising to seek shelter in the workhouse?
Paul

[Howard Brown]

Mr B:

Do you think its more than likely based on the clipping in the previous post inspired by Debra's find that this is "our" Mary Ann Nichols ?

[Debra Arif]

Hi Debs
I don't know if it helps but various newspapers reported that Nichols had been admitted to Lambeth Workhouse following being found destitute in Trafalgar Square. The following is from the Morning Advertiser, 3 September 1888):

‘It has been ascertained that the unfortunate woman was one of those who, last year, were in the habit of sleeping in Trafalgar square; and when a clearance of the nightly visitors was made, it being found that she was destitute, and had no means of subsistence, she was admitted as an inmate to the Lambeth Workhouse.’

The inference is that Nichols was admitted to Lambeth Workhouse by those who found her destitute, whereas your newspaper report says that Nichols was released on her own recognisanse. However, I don't think the one precudes the other: Nichols may have been released on her own recognisance, promising to seek shelter in the workhouse?
Paul

Hi Paul,
Thanks for that, I hadn't looked for corroboration of the Trafalgar Square incident in newspaper reports after Polly's death or noticed them mentioned before.
When things aren't sourced it's hard to know whether it's a recent find based on word searching her name, like I did to find the incident as reported in 1887, or whether it's based on some other information.
I can't see a problem either with Nichols being released on her own promise that she would go to the workhouse, and her going to Lambeth of her own accord.

[Paul]

Hi Howard,
The name 'Mary Ann Nichols' crops up with surprising frequency in the newspaper, so it wasn't uncommon. On the other hand, one cannot help but wonder how many women named Mary Ann Nichols were sleeping rough in Trafalgar Square and taken in during a cleanup process? So, whilst it would be a remarkable coincidence if it wasn't the same Mary Ann Nichols, it would be a far from impossible coincidence. The age, as Debs says, is different, but that's not an insurmountable problem, and there's the claim that she was released on her own recognisance, which conflicts with the later statement that she was admitted to Lambeth Workhouse, but the latter report could be wrong, it could relate to a different day and incident, or, as said, Nichols could have been released on her own recog on the understanding that she would admit herself to Lambeth Workhouse.

I'm not sure that the table-knife secreting woman was Nichols though, or, in reality, any Ripper victim.

[Debra Arif]

There is another account of the incident in Trafalgar Square in The Penny Illustrated Paper October 29, 1887. The police claimed that the task of preventing people sleeping rough in the square were being thwarted by the 'benevolant efforts' of people bringing food there. This was apparently attracting people who would normally have used the casual ward or common lodging houses.

[Debra Arif]

I forgot about the stabbing incident that might have connected to Nichols when I posted the "Work among the fallen" paper that said a few of the victims of JTR had been in prison:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4795

I think the mention of German Moggy seeing Nichols at 2.30 am on the morning of her murder connected to Margaret German who was arrested at Trafalgar Square with Mary Ann Nichols (spotted by Mr Lucky) confirms this is Polly Nichols and the description of her being the "worst woman in the Square" and "very disorderly" in those accounts ties up a bit more with the woman involved in the workhouse stabbing incident?