Could These Be Alice Mackenzie's Relatives ?

[Anna Morris]

I get confused when a bunch of names and geographical information comes up so I should be very careful what I say. I will comment on Alice perhaps living in Tottenham.

I wonder to what extent some of these women travelled as a means of survival? In tracking Catherine Eddowes through the workhouses didn't Debra find that she travelled around a little bit?

With Alice there is the information that she had recently been in Peterboro and then Tottenham is mentioned.

It would make sense that if resources were overused in one area, travelling would be desirable. That sort of thing happens today among the homeless.

[Gary Barnett]

The baptism may actually have been rushed through against that eventuality.

Yes, that may well have been the case. One of my ancestors was Christened twice, once two weeks after his birth and then again several months later. I came to the conclusion that the first may have been a rushed affair to ensure that a sickly child did not die unchristened.

[Gary Barnett]

Hi Gary,

Yes, but I wasn't thinking of him. Wildbore was born in the Peterborough district and lived in Tottenham, though. I was thinking more along the lines that Alice and Joseph Kinsey may have lived there at some point?

I think Joe Kinsey died in Leicester in 1867. My thinking is that Alice probably drifted to London shortly thereafter.

[Gary Barnett]

I get confused when a bunch of names and geographical information comes up so I should be very careful what I say. I will comment on Alice perhaps living in Tottenham.

I wonder to what extent some of these women travelled as a means of survival? In tracking Catherine Eddowes through the workhouses didn't Debra find that she travelled around a little bit?

With Alice there is the information that she had recently been in Peterboro and then Tottenham is mentioned.

It would make sense that if resources were overused in one area, travelling would be desirable. That sort of thing happens today among the homeless.

Alice had supposedly been in a fairly long-term (if volatile) relationship with John McCormack for some years prior to her death. Perhaps the occasional foray to Peterborough (possibly by train) was funded by him in the hope of her being able to elicit some money from her (seemingly) respectable family. Tottenham is only in north London, quite easy to get to on shanks's pony, if there was a reason to do so.

[Debra Arif]

I wonder to what extent some of these women travelled as a means of survival? In tracking Catherine Eddowes through the workhouses didn't Debra find that she travelled around a little bit?

That's correct, Anna. In the casual ward records people were asked where they had spent the previous night and also where they intended to head on release. Eddowes came to and from Stratford, Woolwich, Edgeware, Greenwich, West Ham and Croydon on different occasions.

[Gary Barnett]

Jerry,

Wildbore was a carpenter who had both Leicester and Peterborough connections. He also lived in Tottenham. There's a few coincidences there.

Gary

[Jerry Dunlop]

Jerry,

Wildbore was a carpenter who had both Leicester and Peterborough connections. He also lived in Tottenham. There's a few coincidences there.

Gary

Yes. In 1871 he was living in Keyham, Leicester as a 16 year old carpenter. I think you found he was living with his father's twin brother after his father committed suicide. He also lived a few blocks from Wandsworth Prison on Maysoule Road.

After looking at a map, not a few blocks but less than a mile.

[Gary Barnett]

Yes. In 1871 he was living in Keyham, Leicester as a 16 year old carpenter. I think you found he was living with his father's twin brother after his father committed suicide. He also lived a few blocks from Wandsworth Prison on Maysoule Road.

It all comes back to me now. His father was in the hotel trade at one point, I seem to recall.

[Anna Morris]

Thanks, Gary and Debs.

Gary, I found and posted what I think is Joseph Kinsey's death from UK BMD. It was recorded March 1967 in Leicester if I recall. That is posted back toward the beginning here. He was 25.

Unless I am confused, a child (Alice & Joseph's?) had died a few months before. I wonder if an illness, something like flu, had gone through? If I have this right, Alice had enough tragedy in that space of time to explain the rest of her life.

[Gary Barnett]

Thanks, Gary and Debs.

Gary, I found and posted what I think is Joseph Kinsey's death from UK BMD. It was recorded March 1967 in Leicester if I recall. That is posted back toward the beginning here. He was 25.

Unless I am confused, a child (Alice & Joseph's?) had died a few months before. I wonder if an illness, something like flu, had gone through? If I have this right, Alice had enough tragedy in that space of time to explain the rest of her life.

So you did, Anna. This has been such a team effort, I've forgotten who did what and when! It might be interesting to get that cert too, to see the address and occupation and to see whether Alice was present at the death.

[Debra Arif]

So you did, Anna. This has been such a team effort, I've forgotten who did what and when! It might be interesting to get that cert too, to see the address and occupation and to see whether Alice was present at the death.

Gary, the address was Joseph Street. Robert mentioned it earlier in the thread, there was an announcement in the newspaper.

Leicester Chronicle Saturday, February 23, 1867
Deaths On the 18th inst., Mr. Joseph Kinsey, Joseph Street, aged 25.

[Gary Barnett]

Gary, the address was Joseph Street. Robert mentioned it earlier in the thread, there was an announcement in the newspaper.

Leicester Chronicle Saturday, February 23, 1867
Deaths On the 18th inst., Mr. Joseph Kinsey, Joseph Street, aged 25.

Memory like a sieve! The death notice also appeared in the Leicester Mail and the Leicester Journal.

[Gary Barnett]

The following list of surnames and their variant spellings applied to Alice comes from various sources. Some of course may be journalistic inventions or errors. If anyone comes across any more, please post them and I'll update the list.

Anderson
Baxter
Bryant
Kell
Kelly
Kelley
Kinsey
Mackenzie
McCormack
McKensey
McKenzie
M'Kenzie
Murrell
Palmer
Pits
Pitts
Riley
Taylor

Note: I included McCormack because even though I'd never seen her referred to as such, she was said to have lived with John McCormack 'as his wife', so presumably some thought of her as 'Mrs McCormack'. And Murrell comes from a list produced by Chris Scott on Casebook. I haven't seen it myself, but if it's on Chris's list, it's good enough for me.

[Gary Barnett]

There's a story in Leicester Chronicle May 26, 1860 concerning an assault on the wife of George Halfpenny, a chair and cabinet maker. Joseph Kinsey is briefly mentioned as a witness who worked for Mr Halfpenny in Churchgate.

An interesting little detail is that one of the assailants bit a piece out of Mrs Ha'penny's finger.

[Gary Barnett]

I suspect the Mrs Strickland who claimed to have employed the 15-year-old Alice Pitts as a servant at her Refreshment Rooms in St John's Street was the Mary Ann Strickland (born c. 1808) who in 1871 had a confectioner's shop in that location and employed a 16-year-old servant named Ann Foster. By 1881 she was a retired confectioner living at 42, Almshouses, Cumbergate.