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Could These Be Alice Mackenzie's Relatives ?

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  • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    Wonderful photographs, Gary.
    I can just imagine Alice skipping along that road singing a little song to herself.

    Old softy? Me?

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    • Here’s another view from the same point. It’s from the Getty Collection and it is tagged East End of Cathedral, Peterborough . The photographer is Samuel Buckle (1808-1860) and it is dated to 1853.

      A man with a tall hat appears in this image, too.

      🤔

      836CA68C-9E23-4E26-8B3D-CB1F88D69AA5.jpeg

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      • In my opinion it's the same two blokes before they bought the cart.

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        • Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
          In my opinion it's the same two blokes before they bought the cart.
          Yes, I think you’re right.

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          • Can`t wait for the book !!

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            • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
              Who is the old boy in the stovepipe hat?

              Whoever he was, the chances are Alice knew him.
              I daresay they rubbed shoulders at some point
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen"
              (F. Nietzsche)

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              • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                I can just imagine Alice skipping along that road singing a little song to herself.
                Most definitely !!
                We have a witness account of Alice breaking into a jig and song in Little Paternoster Row shortly before she is murdered.

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                • Thanks for sharing the photos, Gary.
                  To Join JTR Forums :
                  Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

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                  • Minster/Cathedral Precincts

                    I’ve been revisiting the Alice Pitts/Kinsey story.

                    It seems the Peterborough Minster Precincts, where she lived as a child, would have been a small, enclosed environment, largely segregated from the town by its mediaeval walls. In 1851, Minster Precincts constituted a discrete Census enumerator’s district (no. 4):

                    “The whole of the Minster Precincts, comprising the Palace Deanery, Canons’ and Minor Canons’ residences, Toot Hill Close, Vineyard, Minster Yard and Gravel walk.”

                    The enumerator’s summary provides the following information:

                    Separate Occupiers - 37
                    Inhabited Houses - 35
                    Uninhabited Houses - 5

                    Persons, male - 83
                    Persons, female - 116


                    And within that small population, there were clearly sharp economic and social divisions, as the detail of the Census reveals:


                    Minster Yard

                    Richard Layton, Sexton of the Cathedral and Land Surveyor, his wife and two children, his brother-in-law and one servant. 6

                    George Copsey, Bishop’s Butler, his wife and daughter. 3

                    Andrew Percival, Attorney and Solicitor, his wife and three children, and four servants. 9

                    Henry Pearson Gates, Solicitor and Proctor, his wife, a female visitor and two servants. 5

                    George Jaggs, Bishop’s Gardener and his two children. 3

                    George Davys DD, Bishop of Peterborough, his wife, his wife’s sister and seven servants. 10

                    Mary Buswell, a servant, and Elizabeth Carse, an almswoman. 2

                    Elizabeth Griffin, Keeper of a Ladies’ boarding school, her four daughters, three teachers, two servants and four teenaged female pupils. 14

                    John Bruce, Deanery Gardener, and his wife. 2

                    Rebecca West, Almswoman. 1

                    Ruth Mobb, Almswoman. 1

                    Mary Abbott, Almswoman. 1

                    Elizabeth Pindar, Almswoman. 1

                    Elizabeth Warren, Almswoman 1

                    Dinah P. Laksan, Annuitant, her brother, and one servant. 3

                    Samuel Taverner, a Farmer of 350 acres, his wife and two children, and three servants. 7

                    John Ellington, Pensioner Half Pay Quartermaster Life Guards, his wife and daughter. 3

                    Total for Minster Yard: 72


                    Cathedral Precincts

                    John James, Canon of Peterborough, and three servants. 4

                    Frederick A. S. Marshall, Minor Canon to Peterborough Cathedral and Chaplain to the Union, his wife and three children and four servants. 9

                    Charles Pitts, a Post Office Messenger, his wife and seven children, and a male lodger. 10

                    James Cattel, Solicitor’s Managing Clerk, and two servants. 3

                    Marsham Argles, Canon of Peterborough, his wife and six children, and six servants. 14

                    Owen Davys, Archdeacon of Northampton and Rector of Fiskerton, his daughter and three servants. 5

                    John James Beresford, Precentor of Peterborough Cathedral, his mother, his sister, and two servants. 5

                    William Cape, Minor Canon of Peterborough and Master of Grammar School, his sister, two assistants, fifteen male pupils and seven servants. 26

                    John G. Atkinson, Solicitor, his wife and two daughters, and four servants. 8

                    Alban Smalley, Tailor, and his sister. 2

                    Eliza Hartley, a Dressmaker. 1

                    Thomas Collier, a Journeyman Tailor, His two children and a female visitor. 4

                    Mary Dixon, no occupation given, and a male lodger. 2

                    John R. Edwards, an Auctioneer and Appraiser, his wife and six children, and one servant. 9

                    Total for Cathedral Precincts: 102


                    Gravel Walk

                    Samuel Freeman, a Farmer of sixty acres, his wife, two grandchildren, a servant and a male lodger. 6

                    James S. Bays, a Brewer and Spirit Merchant, and his three sons. 4

                    Total for Gravel Walk: 10


                    Toot Hill

                    Robert English, Parish Clerk of St. John the Baptist, Market Harborough and Wheelwright, his wife and three children, and two visitors: his brother-in-law and sister-in-law. 7

                    Edward Mann, Engine Driver, his wife and daughter. 3

                    William Howe, Superintendent of Building Works, his wife and two children, and one servant. 5

                    Total for Toot Hill: 15



                    Two schools are mentioned, a ladies boarding school (presumably Laurel House) and the Grammar School. It’s unlikely that any of the Pitts girls would have attended the fee-paying boarding school, so presumably they were pupils at another establishment in the town.

                    What is notable is the Pitts family’s long residence - over four decades - in the Minster Precincts. Charles’s various occupations include servant, gardener and postman. It seems likely that he was at times an employee of the Cathedral authorities, and that it was on that basis that he secured his residence in the Precincts.

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                    • It appears that Charles Pitts’ older brother, William, emigrated to the U.S. in 1835. I wonder if that could have been the inspiration for Alice’s tale of a son in America. William is said to have been a ‘superb bricklayer’.

                      Does anyone have access to US immigration records?

                      William allegedly arrived in New York, from Liverpool, on 30/5/1835.

                      If we can confirm this, I will add it to Alice’s timeline.

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                      • I have a couple of books on my shelves by Edward Storey who was born in Whittesley in 1930. In Portrait of the Fen Country (Hale, 1971) he has this to say about Peterborough Cathedral:

                        Peterborough’s cathedral does not dominate the landscape as the one does at Ely. It does not enjoy the hilltop position of the cathedral at Lincoln. Nor does it overshadow the town like St. Botolph’s tower at Boston. Nor does it draw you in like the haunted ruins at Crowland. For such an impressive building it is amazing how quickly it gets lost behind the commercial life of the city.


                        I have yet to get to get to Peterborough, but I suspect the Minster Precincts were/are secluded from the City itself. I read recently that nowadays they are a popular spot for prostitution and drug-taking.

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                        • Gary can you give DOB, middle initial , wife's name etc?

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                          • Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                            Gary can you give DOB, middle initial , wife's name etc?


                            William’s birth year was 1806. His wife was Jane (née Tinsley) born 1805. They had a daughter, Mary Jane, who was born in Whittlesey on 29/8/1832.

                            No middle names for William or Jane that I’ve seen.

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                            • I can't find anything on Ancestry.

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                              • Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                                I can't find anything on Ancestry.
                                .

                                According to the tree I’m looking at:

                                “New York, Passenger and Immigration Lists, 1820-1850”

                                It’s under Pitt and the vessel was the Superb.

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