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Could These Be Alice Mackenzie's Relatives ?

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  • Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
    Look at the real Alice' hairline, especially at the temples. That is an odd pattern. In the family picture, the girl to the left of the Maybe-Alice has a similar pattern, for what it's worth.

    In the family portrait, the Maybe-Alice seems to have a fairly fine and adorned dress. I can't see enough details to get much idea about the adornment. If she did handwork, she could have adorned the dress herself. If it was made that way, it looks more expensive than what a servant would have worn, even as a Sunday dress.
    Thanks, Anna. Iím no expert on female attire of any class or period, but I have seen photos of Victorian servants in quite fancy Sunday best clothes. Might they have been given hand-me-downs from the family, I wonder?

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    • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
      It’s a bit of a long shot. I don’t know the precise date of the photo, but Edmund Davys was in Leicester in the 1860s, and the chances are that his father had been Charles Pitts’ ultimate boss in Peterborough.

      What do you think of the resemblance? Could the young servant have developed into the older woman we know as Alice ‘MacKenzie’?

      [ATTACH]20656[/ATTACH]
      I’ve had no response to my enquiries on the Rootschat website where I discovered the photo of the ‘servants’, so I’ve bumped it up.

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      • Those pictures look a lot alike. I think that could be a young Alice.

        Something to look for first is ear lobes, attached or not attached. Hard to say in the mortuary picture, but looks like Alice may have had attached ear lobes.

        I just saw your question from 2019. I do not know if servants got used clothing from employers. I would guess this would have been rare or nonexistent in England because of the class system. In the U.S. that would have been more likely.
        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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        • Could this be Alice Kinsey, in the East End (Limehouse) by 1869? Joseph Kinsey had died in 1867, so the description of the victim as a ‘young woman’ and as having ‘lately descended from a respectable position’ would fit the 24-year-old widow of a respectable provincial carpenter who had died less than two years previously.

          E66DBD4E-67AD-4777-92EC-391D52C343CA.jpeg

          From The Sun 7th January, 1869.

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          • Looking into the assault on an Alice McKenzie by George Palmer, I believe I have found Alice Kinsey on the 1871 census.

            She is living with Benjamin Palmer in Woods Buildings, Whitechapel and passing herself off as Palmer’s wife.

            18, Woods Buildings

            Alice Palmer
            Wife
            M
            27
            No occupation
            Northampton Peterboro

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            • Update

              Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
              The following list of surnames and their variant spellings applied to Alice comes from various sources. Some of course may be journalistic inventions or errors. If anyone comes across any more, please post them and I'll update the list.

              Anderson
              Baxter
              Bryant
              Kell
              Kelly
              Kelley
              Kinsey
              Mackenzie
              McCormack
              McKensey
              McKenzie
              M'Kenzie
              Murrell
              Palmer
              Pits
              Pitts
              Riley
              Taylor

              Note: I included McCormack because even though I'd never seen her referred to as such, she was said to have lived with John McCormack 'as his wife', so presumably some thought of her as 'Mrs McCormack'. And Murrell comes from a list produced by Chris Scott on Casebook. I haven't seen it myself, but if it's on Chris's list, it's good enough for me.

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              • Iíve found a ĎMrs Benjamin Palmerí in BG in 1881. Some details donít fit. Iím trying to eliminate her via her husband.

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                • Another Alice longshot?

                  DB7D3556-0BCB-4E38-A852-665B8967B404.jpeg

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                  • Judging by the ‘Mrs Palmer’, it would seem that the info for the Palmer household was provided by someone who didn’t know them too well. The ages are more or less correct and the default POB of Bethnal Green, where they were living at the time, is a common error.

                    The thing that most concerns me is Palmer’s occupation of carpenter. Elsewhere he is described as a hawker.

                    I’m now on a hunt for a BG carpenter named Benjamin Palmer.

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                    • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                      It would seem that the info for the Palmer household was provided by someone who didnít know them too well. The ages are more or less correct and the default POB of Bethnal Green, where they were living at the time, is a common error.

                      The thing that most concerns me is Palmerís occupation of carpenter. Elsewhere he is described as a hawker.

                      Iím now on a hunt for a BG carpenter named Benjamin Palmer.
                      I have found our BP living in BG in 1851, aged 20. Occupation: hawker.

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                      • Just for the record, here’s Alice ‘Palmer’ in 1881. (Edit: 1871.)

                        874857D6-5FAE-4B57-9E6F-7E6E6A60731A.jpeg

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                        • Aged 27 in 1871 and 1881 - or am I misunderstanding something?

                          Dave

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                          • Originally posted by Cogidubnus View Post
                            Aged 27 in 1871 and 1881 - or am I misunderstanding something?

                            Dave
                            No, I am missing a functioning brain cell.

                            The first image was 1881 (aged 40), the second was 1871 (aged 27) - not 1881!

                            Thanks, Dave.

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                            • Alice Pitts was born on 8th March, 1845, so she would have been 26 in 1871 and 36 in 1881. It seems Benjamin Palmer was born in 1830, so he would have been 41 in 1871 and 51 in 1881: the censuses show his age as 42 and 50 respectively.

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                              • This looks promising, Gary. Good work, as usual! I am not able to see any of the images you have posted so having a bit of trouble following things.

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