Could These Be Alice Mackenzie's Relatives ?

[Gary Barnett]

Look at the real Alice' hairline, especially at the temples. That is an odd pattern. In the family picture, the girl to the left of the Maybe-Alice has a similar pattern, for what it's worth.

In the family portrait, the Maybe-Alice seems to have a fairly fine and adorned dress. I can't see enough details to get much idea about the adornment. If she did handwork, she could have adorned the dress herself. If it was made that way, it looks more expensive than what a servant would have worn, even as a Sunday dress.

Thanks, Anna. I’m no expert on female attire of any class or period, but I have seen photos of Victorian servants in quite fancy Sunday best clothes. Might they have been given hand-me-downs from the family, I wonder?

[Gary Barnett]

It’s a bit of a long shot. I don’t know the precise date of the photo, but Edmund Davys was in Leicester in the 1860s, and the chances are that his father had been Charles Pitts’ ultimate boss in Peterborough.

What do you think of the resemblance? Could the young servant have developed into the older woman we know as Alice ‘MacKenzie’?

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I’ve had no response to my enquiries on the Rootschat website where I discovered the photo of the ‘servants’, so I’ve bumped it up.

[Anna Morris]

Those pictures look a lot alike. I think that could be a young Alice.

Something to look for first is ear lobes, attached or not attached. Hard to say in the mortuary picture, but looks like Alice may have had attached ear lobes.

I just saw your question from 2019. I do not know if servants got used clothing from employers. I would guess this would have been rare or nonexistent in England because of the class system. In the U.S. that would have been more likely.

[Gary Barnett]

Could this be Alice Kinsey, in the East End (Limehouse) by 1869? Joseph Kinsey had died in 1867, so the description of the victim as a ‘young woman’ and as having ‘lately descended from a respectable position’ would fit the 24-year-old widow of a respectable provincial carpenter who had died less than two years previously.



From The Sun 7th January, 1869.

[Gary Barnett]

Looking into the assault on an Alice McKenzie by George Palmer, I believe I have found Alice Kinsey on the 1871 census.

She is living with Benjamin Palmer in Woods Buildings, Whitechapel and passing herself off as Palmer’s wife.

18, Woods Buildings

Alice Palmer
Wife
M
27
No occupation
Northampton Peterboro

[Gary Barnett]

Update

The following list of surnames and their variant spellings applied to Alice comes from various sources. Some of course may be journalistic inventions or errors. If anyone comes across any more, please post them and I'll update the list.

Anderson
Baxter
Bryant
Kell
Kelly
Kelley
Kinsey
Mackenzie
McCormack
McKensey
McKenzie
M'Kenzie
Murrell
Palmer
Pits
Pitts
Riley
Taylor

Note: I included McCormack because even though I'd never seen her referred to as such, she was said to have lived with John McCormack 'as his wife', so presumably some thought of her as 'Mrs McCormack'. And Murrell comes from a list produced by Chris Scott on Casebook. I haven't seen it myself, but if it's on Chris's list, it's good enough for me.

[Gary Barnett]

I’ve found a ‘Mrs Benjamin Palmer’ in BG in 1881. Some details don’t fit. I’m trying to eliminate her via her husband.

[Gary Barnett]

Another Alice longshot?

[Gary Barnett]

Judging by the ‘Mrs Palmer’, it would seem that the info for the Palmer household was provided by someone who didn’t know them too well. The ages are more or less correct and the default POB of Bethnal Green, where they were living at the time, is a common error.

The thing that most concerns me is Palmer’s occupation of carpenter. Elsewhere he is described as a hawker.

I’m now on a hunt for a BG carpenter named Benjamin Palmer.

[Gary Barnett]

It would seem that the info for the Palmer household was provided by someone who didn’t know them too well. The ages are more or less correct and the default POB of Bethnal Green, where they were living at the time, is a common error.

The thing that most concerns me is Palmer’s occupation of carpenter. Elsewhere he is described as a hawker.

I’m now on a hunt for a BG carpenter named Benjamin Palmer.

I have found our BP living in BG in 1851, aged 20. Occupation: hawker.

[Gary Barnett]

Just for the record, here’s Alice ‘Palmer’ in 1881. (Edit: 1871.)

[Cogidubnus]

Aged 27 in 1871 and 1881 - or am I misunderstanding something?

Dave

[Gary Barnett]

Aged 27 in 1871 and 1881 - or am I misunderstanding something?

Dave

No, I am missing a functioning brain cell.

The first image was 1881 (aged 40), the second was 1871 (aged 27) - not 1881!

Thanks, Dave.

[Gary Barnett]

Alice Pitts was born on 8th March, 1845, so she would have been 26 in 1871 and 36 in 1881. It seems Benjamin Palmer was born in 1830, so he would have been 41 in 1871 and 51 in 1881: the censuses show his age as 42 and 50 respectively.

[Debra Arif]

This looks promising, Gary. Good work, as usual! I am not able to see any of the images you have posted so having a bit of trouble following things.