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Could These Be Alice Mackenzie's Relatives ?

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  • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    This looks promising, Gary. Good work, as usual! I am not able to see any of the images you have posted so having a bit of trouble following things.
    Yes, it does, and the more I look into it, the more promising both the 1871 and 1881 records look.

    We have a costermonger named Benjamin Palmer cohabiting with a woman named Alice McKenzie in Limehouse in 1869. She is said to have recently fallen from a respectable position.

    Then in 1871 we have a hawker named BP living in Whitechapel with his ‘wife’ Alice, 27, POB Peterborough.

    Interestingly, the next door neighbour of the BP and Mrs P living in Bethnal Green in 1881 was a dressmaker named Mary Ann Baxter. Baxter was one of Alice’s aliases.

    The Palmer family had connections to Bethnal Green and Limehouse.

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    • I’ve been trying to disprove the possibility that we are looking at ‘our’ Alice by trying to find another AM in the East End, another BP and/or a marriage between another Alice and BP.

      No luck, so far.

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      • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
        I’ve been trying to disprove the possibility that we are looking at ‘our’ Alice by trying to find another AM in the East End, another BP and/or a marriage between another Alice and BP.

        No luck, so far.
        And, I should add, I’ve already looked long and hard for an East End Alice who was born in Peterborough ca 1845, again without success. That said, the Woods Buildings Alice somehow slipped through my net.

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        • Alice’s sister Jane appears to have had an illegitimate child in 1861, fathered by a married man named Percival Blackburn. Jane and Percy married in Islington in 1864, but by 1871 they had returned to Peterborough. Now that it seems that Alice may have been in London by 1868/9, it’s possible that she moved to the capital from Leicester to make contact with her sister.

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          • I looked the story up in the papers so i could follow the discussion. Most newspapers reported that George Palmer was the brother of Benjamin but it looks as though he was Benjamin's son to his first wife. is that correct?

            Edit: scrap that. I can see they were brothers now.

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            • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
              I looked the story up in the papers so i could follow the discussion. Most newspapers reported that George Palmer was the brother of Benjamin but it looks as though he was Benjamin's son to his first wife. is that correct?
              I hadn't spotted that, Debs.

              There is a George on the 1851 census who appears to be BP's brother, but there is something illegible scribbled in the age column.

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              • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                I looked the story up in the papers so i could follow the discussion. Most newspapers reported that George Palmer was the brother of Benjamin but it looks as though he was Benjamin's son to his first wife. is that correct?

                Edit: scrap that. I can see they were brothers now.
                I responded before you scrapped it. :-) BP's dad was also a BP and his mother's maiden name was Horsenail.

                There are also a couple of OB cases for BP's that are interesting. One could be the father of the BP we are looking at. The other was a garotter.

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                • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                  I responded before you scrapped it. :-) BP's dad was also a BP and his mother's maiden name was Horsenail.

                  There are also a couple of OB cases for BP's that are interesting. One could be the father of the BP we are looking at. The other was a garotter.
                  Scrub that. This OB case works age-wise for Alice’s ‘husband’.

                  https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...1-48#highlight

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                  • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                    Scrub that. This OB case works age-wise for Alice’s ‘husband’.

                    https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...1-48#highlight
                    The traveller/hawker/coster discrepancy may not be insurmountable, and this BP travelled in the ‘eastern counties’. Ely gets a mention. It’s a stone’s throw from Peterborough. And not far from Leicester either.

                    6E28374C-89AB-4077-B38E-B138866766F8.png

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                    • On the 1851 census, BP the elder and BP the younger are both recorded as ‘Hawkers’. However, On BP jr’s Bethnal Green christening record his father is shown as a traveller.

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                      • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                        I responded before you scrapped it. :-) BP's dad was also a BP and his mother's maiden name was Horsenail.

                        There are also a couple of OB cases for BP's that are interesting. One could be the father of the BP we are looking at. The other was a garotter.
                        Thanks, Gary. I'll keep an eye on this interesting thread.

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                        • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                          Scrub that. This OB case works age-wise for Alice’s ‘husband’.

                          https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...1-48#highlight
                          Another thing to note is that this BP seems to have travelled in/hawked clothes/cloth and John McCormack was a tailor’s porter. I’m sure we identified McCormack’s employer in Bishopsgate at one time. There was an issue concerning his business premises being demolished to make way for railway improvements (something like that).

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                          • Nice work on this. Thanks Gary and all for sharing the new information.

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                            • Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                              Nice work on this. Thanks Gary and all for sharing the new information.
                              Yes, it adds an interesting significant relationship to Alice’s story - possibly a volatile one if the 1869 incident is anything to go by. And introduces someone, George Palmer, who may have had a grudge against Alice.

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                              • Percy Blackburn

                                7051F891-460E-4FF4-8DFD-C1DF016BAEAA.jpeg


                                Percival Blackburn was Alice McKenzie’s brother-in-law. It appears he fathered a child by Alice’s sister, Jane, while still married to another woman. He had operated as a traveller in wine and spirits for his father, James, who ran a dram shop in Wakefield, until his father dispensed with his services and took out an injunction against him.

                                After his first wife died, Percy married Jane - in 1864, in Islington. Two strangers stood in as witnesses for the couple.

                                On one occasion, while Percy was suffering from delerium tremens, a police constable and others stood guard over him. He apparently discharged a pistol in an attempt at suicide at that time, although the details are rather sketchy and only came to light some years later when Percy accused the policeman who had guarded him of having stolen one of his rings.

                                Percy’s tenure at the Bull and Mouth seems to have been rather short-lived. In August, 1861, he was advertising himself as the new license of the establishment; by February, 1862, a G. Parker had taken over.

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