Could These Be Alice Mackenzie's Relatives ?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Debs

That's even weirder, because that quote box shows up on my screen!

Dave

PS As it's a bit off-topic do you think we ought to discuss it elsewhere or notify How separately?

[Debra Arif]

Hi Debs

That's even weirder, because that quote box shows up on my screen!

Dave

PS As it's a bit off-topic do you think we ought to discuss it elsewhere or notify How separately?

Thanks Dave. Yes, you're right. I'll send How a message too.

[Gary Barnett]

Yes, we need to tell How - just in case he’s not a dedicated follower of our Alice thread. ;-)

Initially I thought the problem might have been something to do with my ancient iPhone.

[Gary Barnett]

Two addresses were given in the press as the location for the attack on Alice by George Palmer - Henry Street and King Street, both supposedly in Limehouse. But after the attack Alice was found wandering in the Mile End Road, which is a fair distance from Limehouse.

Members of the Palmer family can subsequently be found in Cadiz Street, off White Horse Lane, which is much closer to the Mile End Road and which was named Henry Street in the 1870s. In addition, George claimed he was a ropemaker and the proximity of rope works to that Henry Street can be seen in the map below. Mile End Road is the major thoroughfare with tramlines at the top of the map.

The Gentle Author has some very interesting photos of Stepney ropemakers:

https://spitalfieldslife.com/2015/04/16/in-search-of-the-rope-makers-of-stepney/

26FC65F7-501E-45E7-9C28-CC2B2C77176F.jpeg

[Gary Barnett]

It’s intriguing to see there were female workers at the Stepney ropeworks. Perhaps Alice worked there. I seem to remember that the injury to her thumb was as a result of it getting trapped in a ‘machine’ - or am I imagining that?

Incidentally, there was a ropeworks in Leicester in the 1860s. After Joseph died, Alice may have tried to support herself in Leicester before moving to London.

C93A7E79-8C00-4249-8FC8-15EC9E509688.jpeg

[Gary Barnett]

From John McCormack’s inquest testimony:

I recognize her by her thumb, which had been crushed at the top by a machine. The nail was half off.

The Times 17 July, 1889

[Gary Barnett]

I’ve sent off for what I think may be Ben Palmer’s death cert. Several Ancestry trees record his death as having occurred in Lambeth in 1892 and contain a probate record showing an estate of 119 pounds being handled by a commercial clerk named Walter Thomas Palmer. This is obviously not the right BP, the cert I’ve sent off for is for a death in Mile End in the Dec Q of 1887. If it’s the right man, it’ll be interesting to see where he was living a year or two before Alice was murdered.

[Howard Brown]

Nice work as always Gary....thanks !

[Pat Marshall]

Forgive me if this is already been mentioned but does anybody know anything about this birth from GRO ?
Pitts (No mothers name) (also no first name but is a boy)
GRO Ref: 1863 J quarter Leicester Vol 07a page 199

Also the Thomas Joseph Kinsey boy in America, His mother was Isabella StottWas on his death certificate



Pat........

[Gary Barnett]

Forgive me if this is already been mentioned but does anybody know anything about this birth from GRO ?
Pitts (No mothers name) (also no first name but is a boy)
GRO Ref: 1863 J quarter Leicester Vol 07a page 199

Also the Thomas Joseph Kinsey boy in America, His mother was Isabella StottWas on his death certificate



Pat........

Hi Pat,

I think we found his mother was a Caroline Pitts (post 258). Thanks for the info about the American Joe.

I still think there’s a possibility of an earlier child than Joseph in 1866.

[Gary Barnett]

Ben Palmer’s death cert arrived this morning.

He died on 25 October, 1887 at 3, Cadiz Street, Mile End. The cause of death was Bronchitis Pneumonia and the informant was his sister, Fanny ‘Mursh’, who had been present at the death. The occupation shown is ‘carpenter master’, which matches that of the BP living with ‘Mrs Palmer’ in Bethnal Green in 1881.

Checking back on Palmer’s sister, Fanny, I see she married a Richard Mersh in 1864. On the marriage cert her father is shown as Benjamin Palmer, hawker. Richard Mersh’s address was Henry Street (later renamed Cadiz Street) and both he and his father, also Richard Mersh, were twine spinners. It all stacks up, assuming Ben Palmer Jun either changed his occupation from hawker to carpenter post 1871 (when he was 41) or he occasionally reverted to the family occupation of hawker, and was recorded as such, at an earlier age.

On three consecutive censuses - 1861/71/81 - Ben Palmer was recorded as living with a wife:

1861 - Sarah Palmer,
1871 - Alice Palmer,
1881 - Mrs Palmer,

but I’ve yet to find a marriage for him. I’m reasonably confident that the Peterborough-born Alice of 1871 was Alice ‘McKenzie’ and there’s a chance that the ‘Mrs Palmer’ of 1881 was also her.

[Gary Barnett]

Fanny Palmer Marriage

4A1FAA7A-55EA-4138-8E95-F4584F7C3025.jpeg

[Gary Barnett]

Ben Palmer Death

1E3108B9-508C-495D-988E-DB52CE5CBDE8.jpeg

[Gary Barnett]

I haven’t yet unearthed an image of Cadiz/Henry Street. There’s a nice one of Duckett Street by Cadiz Street on the Collage site.

[Gary Barnett]

Duckett Street by Cadiz Street

https://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/view-item?i=119888