Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Concertina Player of Trafalgar Square

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    One gets the impression that concertina playing was a not uncommon profession for the blind:

    From Music and Morals, Hugh reginald Haweis, 1873:
    blindsingers1872.jpg

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Kattrup View Post
      One gets the impression that concertina playing was a not uncommon profession for the blind:

      From Music and Morals, Hugh reginald Haweis, 1873:
      blindsingers1872.jpg
      I’m sure they were. That was the case well into my lifetime.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

        I’m sure they were. That was the case well into my lifetime.
        That said, we’re not talking about one on every street corner.



        Comment


        • #19
          I'm sure half these characters claimed to be blind when they weren't.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

            I think Margaret Franklin also mentioned a blind man in Alice’s past.

            Perhaps Jon will look in and tells us where he got that date from - it may just have been an estimate based on Alice’s known movements.
            Hi Gary

            Hope you`re keeping well.

            Just seen this. I don`t have access to the RIP article but there should be a source attached to it (probably a newspaper account). I`ll see if I can find it.

            Jon

            Comment


            • #21
              Hi Jon,

              Yes, I’m fine, thanks. I hope you are well too.

              I have a copy of the article, which is excellent! In it you attribute the info about the concertina player’s death to Margaret Franklin. You also mention that Alice at one time lived in Kate (Keat/Keate) Street, which is interesting because there was at least one doss house there that ‘cadgers’ (beggars) used to frequent. I think I once started a thread about Keate Street. In the 1870s it was up there with the Flowery Dean as one of the most disreputable streets in the East End. And, of course, that’s when my ancestors lived there. Three children were born to my gg grandparents in Lower Keate Street in the 1870s and they all died within a few months of birth.

              I think your article deserves a companion piece focussing on Alice’s background prior to her hooking up with McCormack.

              I believe it was Howard who praised the artwork on the front cover of Ripp 138. I concur, it’s very powerful.

              Gary
              Attached Files

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
                I'm sure half these characters claimed to be blind when they weren't.
                You’re such a cynic. You even doubted Tommy Fogarty’s blindness.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                  Hi Jon,

                  Yes, I’m fine, thanks. I hope you are well too.

                  I have a copy of the article, which is excellent! In it you attribute the info about the concertina player’s death to Margaret Franklin. You also mention that Alice at one time lived in Kate (Keat/Keate) Street, which is interesting because there was at least one doss house there that ‘cadgers’ (beggars) used to frequent. I think I once started a thread about Keate Street. In the 1870s it was up there with the Flowery Dean as one of the most disreputable streets in the East End. And, of course, that’s when my ancestors lived there. Three children were born to my gg grandparents in Lower Keate Street in the 1870s and they all died within a few months of birth.

                  I think your article deserves a companion piece focussing on Alice’s background prior to her hooking up with McCormack.

                  I believe it was Howard who praised the artwork on the front cover of Ripp 138. I concur, it’s very powerful.

                  Gary
                  Yes, good thanks !!

                  I now have the article, off the Rip site.
                  Unfortunately, I can only narrow down my source for the Franklin and Kate Street info to amongst the below (but probably a local rag like the Walthamstow)

                  111 The Times, Friday, 19 July 1889; Walthamstow and Leyton Guardian (UK), Saturday, 20 July 1889; Daily Gleaner (Jamaica), 26 July 1889; MEPO 3/140 ff 272-3; MEPO 3/140 ff 294-7; HO144/221/A49301I ff.7-10; MEPO 3/140, ff 263-71; Alderley and Wilmslow Advertiser, Friday, 19 July 1889; Times (London), Thursday, 18 July 1889; The Aroha News New Zealand, 27 July 1889; Fresno Weekly Republican (California, USA), 18 July 1889; Plymouth and Cornish Advertiser, 17 July 1889; Daily Alta California, 18 July 1889; Echo, 18 July 1889; Hull Daily Mail, 18 July 1889; Birmingham Daily Post, 18 July 1889; Peterborough Express, 18 July 1889

                  Interesting about Kate Street and your ancestors. Was there a Kate Street ? If not, it has to be a corruption of Keate Street.

                  Yes, Adam`s cover artwork is very powerful.

                  I still follow the great detective work you are doing on Alice. Your findings (ie. actually identifying her) really need to be out there, mate :-)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Jon,

                    I think ‘Kate’ was almost certainly a corruption of ‘Keat/Keate’. Debs’ finding of Alice in the infirmary with a Keat or Keate Street address supports that, and I don’t think there ever was a Kate Street in Whitechapel or Spitalfields.

                    I’ve just checked the Keate Street ‘cadgers’ lodging house I mentioned earlier. That was much earlier, 40s/50s, but it may still have been operating in the 70s. A bit more research to be done there.

                    There are some irritating loose ends that have discouraged me from putting Alice out there. I don’t have a clue where, or even if, she went to school. I’m not even sure where she was Christened, whether it was in the Cathedral itself or a separate chapel of some kind within the Minster Precincts. I’ve asked a few Peterborough-savvy people who’ve all said ‘the Cathedral’, but there’s still a niggling doubt in my mind.

                    Perhaps it’s time to go with what I’ve got for the time being.I do feel that a piece about Alice’s origins would complement yours.

                    I’m pleased to hear that you have been following the thread. I’ve never delved too much into the events surrounding her murder apart from the limited info that came out about her background. That one word uttered by McCormack - ‘Peterborough’ - is the only reason Alice’s background is not still a complete mystery. Or perhaps that should be two words, ‘Peterborough’ and ‘Postman’.

                    I feel a Monty Python moment coming on - ‘What did McCormack ever do for us?’


                    Gary
                    + More Options

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                      Jon,


                      There are some irritating loose ends that have discouraged me from putting Alice out there. I don’t have a clue where, or even if, she went to school. I’m not even sure where she was Christened, whether it was in the Cathedral itself or a separate chapel of some kind within the Minster Precincts. I’ve asked a few Peterborough-savvy people who’ve all said ‘the Cathedral’, but there’s still a niggling doubt in my mind.
                      Hi Gary,
                      What is making you unsure about where the baptism occurred?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post

                        Hi Gary,
                        What is making you unsure about where the baptism occurred?
                        Just the thought of little Alice, the footman’s daughter, being baptised in the Cathedral itself. It seems too grand. Her baptism record just says MInster Precincts, I think.

                        I’ll have to go back and remind myself, but I think the baptism records of some children of high-ranking clerics say the same thing, so my doubts are probably groundless.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

                          Just the thought of little Alice, the footman’s daughter, being baptised in the Cathedral itself. It seems too grand. Her baptism record just says MInster Precincts, I think.

                          I’ll have to go back and remind myself, but I think the baptism records of some children of high-ranking clerics say the same thing, so my doubts are probably groundless.
                          Yes, my mum was the same when she discovered that some of her poor mill worker ancestors were baptised in Manchester Cathedral. Local historians suggested this was normal and done en masse for the poor. Having said that, I checked Alice Pits baptism again and she appears to be the only child baptised that day.
                          There are notes made by the different Precentors of Peterborough Cathedral in the Bishop's transcripts, I don't know if you have seen those, or if they help? They are declarations that the baptisms and marriages are taken from the several books and registers of the Cathedral Church of Peterborough....something along those lines.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post

                            Yes, my mum was the same when she discovered that some of her poor mill worker ancestors were baptised in Manchester Cathedral. Local historians suggested this was normal and done en masse for the poor. Having said that, I checked Alice Pits baptism again and she appears to be the only child baptised that day.
                            There are notes made by the different Precentors of Peterborough Cathedral in the Bishop's transcripts, I don't know if you have seen those, or if they help? They are declarations that the baptisms and marriages are taken from the several books and registers of the Cathedral Church of Peterborough....something along those lines.
                            Thanks Debs.

                            I think Alice was the only child baptised in the ‘Precincts’ that entire year. If you go back a page to 1844 you’ll find the Bishop of Peterborough baptising his own grandson. I hope they changed the water in the font between Christenings.

                            Yes, the ‘Bishop’s Transcripts’ thing is another issue. If only a handful of children were baptised in a given year, why the need for several books? Unless it was a case of births and marriages being brought together in a single volume.

                            As an aside, I had a similar feeling when I went into Christchurch, Spitalfields after the interior had been refurbed. It seemed to be far too posh for my old jail bird grandad to have been baptised in.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Thanks Debs.

                              I think Alice was the only child baptised in the ‘Precincts’ that entire year. If you go back a page to 1844 you’ll find the Bishop of Peterborough baptising his own grandson. I hope they changed the water in the font between Christenings.

                              Yes, the ‘Bishop’s Transcripts’ thing is another issue. If only a handful of children were baptised in a given year, why the need for several books? Unless it was a case of births and marriages being brought together in a single volume.

                              As an aside, I had a similar feeling when I went into Christchurch, Spitalfields after the interior had been refurbed. It seemed far too posh for my old jail bird grandad to have been baptised in.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                                Jon,

                                I think ‘Kate’ was almost certainly a corruption of ‘Keat/Keate’. Debs’ finding of Alice in the infirmary with a Keat or Keate Street address supports that, and I don’t think there ever was a Kate Street in Whitechapel or Spitalfields.

                                I’ve just checked the Keate Street ‘cadgers’ lodging house I mentioned earlier. That was much earlier, 40s/50s, but it may still have been operating in the 70s. A bit more research to be done there.

                                There are some irritating loose ends that have discouraged me from putting Alice out there. I don’t have a clue where, or even if, she went to school. I’m not even sure where she was Christened, whether it was in the Cathedral itself or a separate chapel of some kind within the Minster Precincts. I’ve asked a few Peterborough-savvy people who’ve all said ‘the Cathedral’, but there’s still a niggling doubt in my mind.

                                Perhaps it’s time to go with what I’ve got for the time being.I do feel that a piece about Alice’s origins would complement yours.

                                I’m pleased to hear that you have been following the thread. I’ve never delved too much into the events surrounding her murder apart from the limited info that came out about her background. That one word uttered by McCormack - ‘Peterborough’ - is the only reason Alice’s background is not still a complete mystery. Or perhaps that should be two words, ‘Peterborough’ and ‘Postman’.

                                I feel a Monty Python moment coming on - ‘What did McCormack ever do for us?’


                                Gary
                                + More Options
                                Hi Gary

                                I would certainly welcome a piece on Alice`s origins, and a timeline with sources from her birth to July 89 would certainly compliment my article. Do you have the inclination ?

                                Having re-read my article I noticed a bit about blind boy George Dixon possibly been a younger brother of lodging house keeper Elizabeth Ryder (her maiden name was apparently Dixon)

                                Have you come across anything on Dixon on Ryder that may show them to be relatives as I suggested ?

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X